Free Will Discussion

[Harmony342]

Can someone please clear up free will for me please? I find various conflicting sources of information but it never seems to clarify much for me

[Pallero]

Determinism is when you choose something in order to avoid something else. The desire to avoid is because you have not integrated that aspect, therefore wanting to get away from it. To choose in order to get away is not free, because you HAVE TO get away from something else.

Free will is when you choose something because you like it or want it. In FREE will, there is no aversion to other things. Think of it like an ice cream buffet. I choose watermelon not because I HAVE TO get away from chocolate, which I hate. No, I choose watermelon simply because I prefer it in that moment.

Choosing something to get away from something else, and choosing something because of preference are two very different things. Think about it: choosing a well-paying job, because you HAVE TO get away from poverty, because poverty is awful. Vs. Choosing a well-paying job not because it's well-paying but because you prefer the activity of doing the job to other activities.

This video will also explain the path of choice:

 

[Harmony342]

But surely this is free will still? Surely no-one 'has to' avoid poverty, but chooses to avoid it given their associations and experiences with poverty? It seems like such a confusing topic to me. Sam Harris states we have no free will because thoughts arise without you controlling them. I don't think i agree with him entirely but he has a good point.

[Artsu]

9 hours ago, Harmony342 said:

But surely this is free will still? Surely no-one 'has to' avoid poverty, but chooses to avoid it given their associations and experiences with poverty? It seems like such a confusing topic to me. Sam Harris states we have no free will because thoughts arise without you controlling them. I don't think i agree with him entirely but he has a good point.

Some thoughts arise separately to us, some we think intentionally.

We of course do have free will.

You can feel that you are free. Misuse of logic shouldn't convince you otherwise.

[allislove]

Imagine, you dream a sweet dream. In this dream, you are Sara living in Paris. Sara goes for the ice-cream. Is it her choice? Does she have free will? It depends. Solely, Sara doesn't have free will since it's you who dreams her going for the ice-cream. But also, Sara is you, and you are free to dream anything.

[Consept]

What i think about in regards to free will is what does a choice completely of free will even look like? Lets say you want lunch and your choices are a sandwich or a salad, what determines you choosing one or the other would be lots of different things, like if you had either before and preferred one over the other, did you get some information recently that told you a salad is a healthier option? Does a sandwich remind you of something? There are so many factors that the choice could never be completely independent and therefore free of influence. You could say if you make a random choice that could be freewill but it wouldnt be as it would be random. 

if we take it further, any decision you make in your life is proceeded by the fact that you were born, as far as we know, without you choosing to be and without you choosing what circumstances or what type of personality, brain chemistry, upbringing, parents, etc. All these things have immeasurable influence on what your choices in life would be, so if your choice making function was developed without your input how could any choice you make be independent and of your own free will. 

If there was complete free will, why would anyone make bad choices? Why would anyone be poor or homeless or unhappy? Potentially you could make better choices if you are more conscious, but again its dependent on the information you have. For example i could read a book that teaches me how to eat healthy, if i follow that book ill change what i eat but im only changing what i eat because ive followed that book, so its not an independent choice, ive been influenced, it may not even be the best advice. 

So for me i dont see how there could be free will unless it can be proved and defined properly, what a choice that is completely independent and comes about through free will even looks like 

[Moon]

3 hours ago, allislove said:

Imagine, you dream a sweet dream. In this dream, you are Sara living in Paris. Sara goes for the ice-cream. Is it her choice? Does she have free will? It depends. Solely, Sara doesn't have free will since it's you who dreams her going for the ice-cream. But also, Sara is you, and you are free to dream anything.

Nice one!!

1 hour ago, Consept said:

What i think about in regards to free will is what does a choice completely of free will even look like? Lets say you want lunch and your choices are a sandwich or a salad, what determines you choosing one or the other would be lots of different things, like if you had either before and preferred one over the other, did you get some information recently that told you a salad is a healthier option? Does a sandwich remind you of something? There are so many factors that the choice could never be completely independent and therefore free of influence. You could say if you make a random choice that could be freewill but it wouldnt be as it would be random. 

Interesting points...but even if you're not completely free of influence it doesn't mean it's predestined or a lack of free will, as surely you chose prior steps that influenced you in this way 

1 hour ago, Consept said:

if we take it further, any decision you make in your life is proceeded by the fact that you were born, as far as we know, without you choosing to be and without you choosing what circumstances or what type of personality, brain chemistry, upbringing, parents, etc. All these things have immeasurable influence on what your choices in life would be, so if your choice making function was developed without your input how could any choice you make be independent and of your own free will. 

Yeah I don't fully understand this, but there may be a deeper truth...that we did dream up our existence before we were born  (still to experience it for myself though) 

[Consept]

1 hour ago, Moon said:

Interesting points...but even if you're not completely free of influence it doesn't mean it's predestined or a lack of free will, as surely you chose prior steps that influenced you in this way 

Im not really arguing for predestiny im just saying it would be hard to pin down how free will could actually work. If you didnt choose to be born and the circumstances of where you were born etc then every following choice has its root in those seemingly uncontrollable circumstances. Also you didnt choose your genetics, so you may have a genetic disposition to be athletic and like sports for example, you then make a career out of playing sports but the only reason you did that is you were genetically coded to enjoy those activities, so was that your free will to choose sports? I think what i would ask anyone who makes an argument for free will is, can you give me an example of a choice that can be made that is completely independent of any influence? and, bonus question, do you choose your thoughts, if you do where did the thought to choose a specific thought come from? (if you dont choose your thoughts how can there be free will?)

 

1 hour ago, Moon said:

Yeah I don't fully understand this, but there may be a deeper truth...that we did dream up our existence before we were born  (still to experience it for myself though) 

This could be the case, who knows i havent had direct experience of it either, maybe no one will until we die. But even if it is the case, if you cant remember that youre God then whoever you think you are (ego, conscious mind) specifically doesnt have free will as only God would have free will. If you surrender to something higher then again the little you specifically doesnt have free will, potentially the higher you does.

[allislove]

@Moon

[Enlightenment]

@Harmony342 Define free will and I will tell you