How to ESCAPE religion?

[zeroISinfinity]

He is risen, He is all powerful and mighty. 

Love this verse. 

[Alfonsoo]

@Jay Ray Alright, so I made an agreement with the person. I will show the them a piece of information like a spiral dynamics article, or a transexual explaining how they feel, or similarities between religions and the person will give me information from their perspective like the bible and passages interpreted as is, blue propaganda, etc. This way I get to really understand their world view and I get them to start exploring or at least acknowledge there are different  and similar world views to -insert religion- (in this case catholic).  And they might start to appreciate how they’re just one worldview, and how they were raised could have change their entire belief system etc. And i feel this way love practiced, as i’m not judging or telling them they are wrong but trying tu understand them.

[Alfonsoo]

6 minutes ago, zeroISinfinity said:

He is risen, He is all powerful and mighty. 

Love this verse. 

what do you mean?

[Jay Ray]

2 minutes ago, Alfonsoo said:

@Jay Ray Alright, so I made an agreement with the person. I will show the them a piece of information like a spiral dynamics article, or a transexual explaining how they feel, or similarities between religions and the person will give me information from their perspective like the bible and passages interpreted as is, blue propaganda, etc. This way I get to really understand their world view and I get them to start exploring or at least acknowledge there are different  and similar world views to -insert religion- (in this case catholic).  And they might start to appreciate how they’re just one worldview, and how they were raised could have change their entire belief system etc. And i feel this way love practiced, as i’m not judging or telling them they are wrong but trying tu understand them.

That is awesome. I would recommend starting with explaining the neti neti method and then do spiral dynamics. net neti was the thing that started my spiritual journey. 

If you have any questions on anything please feel free to private message me. 

[daemons]

My answer to this is to teach openmindedness. You mentioned showing them information as a trade off. If you can ask them "how would you feel if you were a transexual and ... happened?" it will increase their empathy for others - regardless of their lifestyle, which is a stage Green value.

The catch is, if you don't understand stage Blue or haven't lived it, is that to even just _imagine_ being a transexual for a stage Blue person is very difficult, unpalleteable and probably even "wrong".

This is why I say to teach them openmindedness. First they have to be able to imagine things that for them are taboo or downright unacceptable. If you haven't seen it yet, watch Leo's video on openmindedness. It helps you understand what it feels like when your truth or paradigm is being questioned. This is what will happen to your Blue friend when you try to get them to discuss things that are counter to their religious faith.

[Alfonsoo]

@Jay Ray I would prefer to keep the conversation here so others can see, they might find it helpful 

[Jay Ray]

@Alfonsoo

24 minutes ago, Alfonsoo said:

@Jay Ray I would prefer to keep the conversation here so others can see, they might find it helpful 

sounds good, maybe this stuff could even become a mega thread. "helping stage blue mega thread" 

[Nahm]

2 hours ago, Alfonsoo said:

I genuinely believe the can grow even though they might not see it.

Instead of truth I would say Infinity, God, selflessness, lack of ego, Love, maybe freedom.

I agree, but conversationally ‘grow’ points to deficit if they’re still reactionary. You could explain that they are that which they are talking about, by explaining they haven’t actually experienced any of what they’re talking about. That they heard it from someone else, and believed it. Religion, is a belief. Actually finding out for oneself as you have is an entirely different conversation than one about beliefs. You could explain the nature of suffering, and the liberation of it. Not to convince them, not for their growth. Only if you want to. 

[seeking_brilliance]

@Alfonsoo trust the old saying, if they are ready, they will come (and the teachings or help will find them.)  they may not necessarily do this before the body withers. If you set bait, it would draw out those who are ready, and it may not be this stage green person that you like. 

 

[Alfonsoo]

17 hours ago, seeking_brilliance said:

If you set bait, it would draw out those who are ready, and it may not be this stage green person that you like. 

 

What could go wrong?

[seeking_brilliance]

@Alfonsoo nothing, I just mean you might attract other religious people and not the one you have in mind. You don't really know how ready he is. It's very hard to let go of a complete faith in God. 

[Alfonsoo]

5 hours ago, seeking_brilliance said:

@Alfonsoo nothing, I just mean you might attract other religious people and not the one you have in mind. You don't really know how ready he is. It's very hard to let go of a complete faith in God. 

Yeah, I’m aware that there’s a really big chance for things going south. But i think it’s worth. First of all, form my perspective i’m helping someone detach and be open minded (more), and I think I needed to get rid of some residual paradigms and toxic stereotypes from religious and stage blue people. But a very important thing i’ve learned is that i’ve gotta let my self be more vulnerable.

[Byun Sean]

@Alfonsoo

Be careful of trying to get others to grow before they are ready. Moving up the spiral is not an easy or necessarily quick process for everyone. 

If you try to force anything on anyone in hopes they will grow, it may be counter productive and make them defend their original frame of mind in an even stronger way.

 

People will only be available for change or growth when they are open to it or seeking it themselves.

In the case of the stage blue person. They need to become aware of the faults of their belief system on their own time and how it is limited. This is a delicate process and people can easily get very defensive about this stuff.

Focus on your own growth first and help others only when they ask for it or are clearly open to it.

 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Byun Sean

[Leo Gura]

On 8/20/2020 at 8:17 AM, Alfonsoo said:

They’re rejecting the one thing that will get them unstuck.

Precisely! That's the whole game.

God himself cannot help a person with a closed mind.

Which is why a desire for self-exploration is fundamental.

[Alfonsoo]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Precisely! That's the whole game.

God himself cannot help a person with a closed mind.

Which is why a desire for self-exploration is fundamental.

How can someone get this desire? If one doesn’t get it your doomed?

Make some think of what a privileged situation we are. And how out of control.

[Alfonsoo]

@Byun Sean I’m being specially cardio to not push too hard. I’m ready tu pull back at the slightest sign of resistance or backlash.

 

How can I let them see the limitations of their current perspective? I’ve being trying some questioning/open mind exercises to start too loosen them up a little. 

I’m also trying not to accidentally sprinkle my own paradigms into the “teachings” when trying to communicate all this abstract new stuff.

[WaveInTheOcean]

watch the first 15-20 min 

 

[Brittany]

On 8/19/2020 at 0:37 PM, Alfonsoo said:

 how someone can help a religious break out? 

Why help someone who is not asking?

[Brittany]

I have been on the spiritual path for a long time. And my parents are evangelical Christians but we are cool. haha No arguments, no debates, no fight. 

I don't think it's BAD that my parents are religious. I don't feel a need to "save" them from their "Wrong" path. 

If you think religion = BAD or even religion = dumb/stupid/ignorant which is all duality, then you will get triggered into a "I must save them!!" path.

You can have close intimacy with people even if you don't share their religion.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Brittany

[Byun Sean]

On 8/22/2020 at 11:08 PM, Alfonsoo said:

@Byun Sean I’m being specially cardio to not push too hard. I’m ready tu pull back at the slightest sign of resistance or backlash.

 

How can I let them see the limitations of their current perspective? I’ve being trying some questioning/open mind exercises to start too loosen them up a little. 

I’m also trying not to accidentally sprinkle my own paradigms into the “teachings” when trying to communicate all this abstract new stuff.

I would first encourage you to look inward at why you need them to change and grow so bad.

Why aren't they already perfect the way they are in your eyes whether they grow or not?

Sounds like you have an underlying agenda. Dig that up first. Thats your gold nugget right there.

 

People sense when you are needy for them to act a certain way or change. It puts pressure on them making them want to stay right where they are.