How to ESCAPE religion?

[Alfonsoo]

If someone is so deceived, thinks actually knows the Truth, and are closed to many of the growing tools (like psychedelics), how can someone break out, or how someone can help a religious break out? 

[Johnny5]

Nobody can help anyone who doesn't want help. And who is to say that they need it...

[Jay Ray]

one strategy that I have wanted to use with closed minded people is too love them and act like them but with different content. 

lets say you have a dogmatic fundamentalist Christian family member. They believe that their faith is unique and inherently true. Any attempted to categorize them or go meta and look at the deep similarities of all spiral stage blue religion is feared. This similarly is what broke me out of Christianity and up the spiral. If you want to break them out of dogma, then you need to show them the deep similarities of all stage blue faiths, especially the things that they preach is good. you need to go meta. 

 Christianity wants a monopoly on love and faith and Joy

I was taught that ONLY JESUS can give you everlasting peace and that all other faiths give temporary peace . Buddhism and Hinduisms was taught  to be demonic and evil but might make you feel good for the short life and then there will be an eternal afterlife of pain in hell.  

but other faiths say Exactly the same thing

 I bet that Islam also thinks of Buddhism and Hinduism as demonic. 

 

the love which Christianity gives to stage red people living a tough life is enough to convert them. so you will need to love the Christians even more to get them closer to awaken.   fight conditional love with unconditional love. love them unconditional unlike how Christianity only gives conditional love. Don't be the angry Atheist (at least to their face). 

 

Deep similarity between stage blue is what really brought me out of it . It is what made me question it and is still the thing that I think that most Blue religious people try and avoid at all cost. 

Fundamentalist Christians hate being compared to anything similar. they try and hide, blame and scapegoat any similarity.  They try and isolate there kids from any outside religious or faith system, unless it is under strict ridicule from a pastor  

I recommend that you embody the positive sides of what Christians claim to support 

the fruits of the spirit are 

• "unconditional" love
• joy 
• peace 
• patients
• self control

do these things non dogmatically and show them that a static, never changing "word of god" is not needed to do these things. You can do all of this stuff without even ever hearing of the bible.

Just please don't try and be the stereo typical atheist and say "the bible is horrible and I hate everything in it" there is some wisdom and some B.S. the bible is one spiritual technology out of 1000's and really needs to be looked at with a stage yellow lens. 

look for the similarities without jugging them. The one thing that Christians do that you can through back at them is being a missionary of sorts. A Christian will try and show peace and love to someone in stage red to get them to conform and be a better more rounded person, you can do the exactly same thing. Acknowledge the good the dogma does compared to stage Red and help "preach" to the Christians and try not to say "you are wrong, you need to be more open minded".

i would say "I think that Jesus was a great guy and I fully accept you and your faith. I don't personally believe that Jesus was Lord and creator of the world, but I see the value that it has with creating a sense of safely, community and life purpose, I see it as a wonderful technology that many people need in their life (stage red). Your missionary efforts are truly done in a great place of love and I respect you greatly for trying to make a difference. However, this technology of Christianity needs a lot of improvement, it needs to change to adapt to a modern world, there is a huge number of people who need a thing SIMILAR to the CHRISTIAN system of Faith but that will work for LGBT+, People and people who want to awaken scientifically and spiritually. I think that concept of love joy, peace, patients and self control are some of the best virtues that our generations disparately needs but Christianity is not the most adapt technology for the job, it is starting to crumble with the rise of Atheism and a lot of atheist aren't getting the teaching that works for them and this causes suffering.  "  

I would ask this Christian "would you like an Atheist to have love, joy, peace, patients and self control WITHOUT CHRISTIANITY involved? or would you prefer that that Christ had a monopoly on those emotions and the ONLY Christians had those and that BILLIONS OF PEOPLE would suffer?" 

I would say to the Christian "I know that Christ saved you from the pain and suffering of your troubled past (stage red) and that your life improved immensely from the preachers that converted you when you were young, I want to do the same for all people regardless of what they believe. I don't want to invalidate your experience, stage Red SUCKS and I am truly happy that you evolved passed it, your emotional high from leaving stage red must of been huge but I know that there is even more joy away from your faith.  I want to help you go even farther in exactly the same way that your pastor helped you.  If you want me to, I can teach you about non-duality and mysticism. " 

"I want everyone regardless of any background, sexual, orientation and scientific curiosity to have these things, they are essential to human well being and Christianity needs to either adapt or give way to some newer spiritual technology in order to help the most amount of people. I want YOU to be free of all suffering and mental distress to and I want you to know that I LOVE YOU in exactly the same way that Christ says for YOU TO LOVE ME. "   

 

If you have any questions about my answer please feel free to ask

check out darkmatter2525 on you tube, he has some very great ways to transcend stage blue into stage Orange. 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Jay Ray

[Alfonsoo]

@Jay Ray Thanks a LOT, i’ll definitely try this, but you think this would be effective with someone who is extremely and deeply in love with their christianity. i’m not talking about the usual believer that goes to church on sundays and that’s as far their religion goes (the rest being general blue values). This person is way too deep in the religion. Knows the bible backwards, wants to talk about god all the time, is quite active in church activities (you know what I mean) HOWEVER, the person seems to have some green spiral parts. The person is not racist and all that, seems to be on the more loving and open minded about some stuff (like homosexuality, and nonbelievers, etc) but specifically about the religion (christ, will, spirit, the history and all that), the devotion is very deep.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Alfonsoo

[Nahm]

6 hours ago, Alfonsoo said:

the Truth

Obviously it’s ineffable, but what are a few other words you’d suggest as pointers? 

[Jay Ray]

@Alfonsoo I think that there is a lot of conceptual work and thought that needs to be put in to be able to get stage SOLID blue up the spiral. this is something that fascinates me more than anything. during my angry atheist stage in life I really started to hate all religion and wanted away from stage blue but now I know that that is the worst think an apostate could do because that just plays into their dogma even more. People who are extremely dogmatic and are basically willing to die for Christ (like my relatives) these people are the hardest to convert, however just loving them and not judging them is the first step. I think that my life calling is to try and help stage blue so this could take me years to master a strategy. Even if you don't convert them, you WILL deepen you connection with these people (or they will show their true hateful nature).Either way you have nothing to lose by loving them.  

 

If you are willing to spend lots of time I would recommend reading the bible in depth and try and memories verses, put the same passion into the verses an show them that it is a valid spiritual technology that you want to understand more, but is NOT LITERALLY TRUE. Show them new interpretations that you have that go against their dogma.  the "turn the other cheek" style of verses are SO SIMILAR to Buddhism that you could use this. If someone says "man I hate those people in group X" teach them to act like Jesus.  tell them kindly to turn the other cheek. modern Christians dont really do this that much.  

also, remember that their dogma's are not 100% biblical. A lot of what they believe in is simply culturally ASSUMED to be in the bible.Show them how this is wrong and point towards the fact that their 2000 year old faith is more like 50% B.S. made up last century.   

maybe even allow your self to experience the "Joy of the lord" and pray with them. When I was a believer I got very spiritually high off of praising god. I can now conger up this feeling of love and praise without believing in it.  It feels amazing, truly amazing to worship. let them know that you understand the feeling and emotion of worship and join in non-dogmatically. This feeling is from consciousnesses not Jesus.  I still listen to Christian Rock music and get the same feeling of Praise that I got with believing in it.  I get the high without the low of shame and repression of "sinful thoughts".

but I think that: if you are willing to spend LOTS of time with Christians and go to church, love them, respect them and honestly listen to what they say this will increase the chances of them moving up the spiral.

 

I feel like "helping stage blue" would be a greater topic to have a thread about. 

 

if you cant change their mind at least you can maybe move them up the spiral a small bit.  

Also branding spiritual practices like neti neti or mindfulness as "cool thought experiments"  may be useful if they Christian in question is a bit closer to stage Orange.

 

If you have any more questions please feel free to ask. this stuff is SO interesting for me. I am free now and I want to free others. I remember what it was like to be SO DOGMATIC and it is not fun in the long run. I am free.  

[Artsu]

Have you thought of what you need to break free from?

[Leo Gura]

Usually it will take the form of learning science and realizing that most of religion is bullshit and so switching to atheism.

[mandyjw]

Fear can bind you to religion, but the love and devotion part, if it's genuine, will only be found to have no source to credit. The credit given to the religion, God, or some figure being the cause of that love and transcendence will fall away, which only deepens, frees and clarifies the "purpose" of the religion, the love of God itself. Often this happens over time in lots of little ways, like disappointments caused by idols acting badly, devilry in the church or organization, disillusionment, some dilemma between what a person really authentically is the the person they have to pretend to be to stay in line with the religious ideals comes up. When we give credit and put our faith in something false it has it's own way of revealing itself. 

Sometimes there are ways to help someone see just how boundless, free and unconditional the core of what they really love about their religion is. But because it's boundless, free and unconditional it's already perfect as it is. 

[Alfonsoo]

@Leo Gura but how can they get to that if their attachment to religion and blue values is the very thing keeping them away from growing? They’re rejecting the one thing that will get them unstuck. And they probably don’t want and will avoid being helped. Maybe even consider the helping a threat.

Edited August 20, 2020 by Alfonsoo

[Alfonsoo]

@Jay Ray I’m getting into a lot of dead ends when the argument of “the Bible says so” comes up. And I don’t think saying that just because a book says doesn’t mean it’s true would help the situation. I think they need to realize that by themselves but how to help them get there

[Alfonsoo]

@Nahm what do you mean? (sorry english is not my native language)

[Nahm]

23 hours ago, Alfonsoo said:

If someone is so deceived, thinks actually knows the Truth, and are closed to many of the growing tools (like psychedelics), how can someone break out, or how someone can help a religious break out? 

What other words might you pop into that statement instead of Truth?

[Alfonsoo]

@Nahm i would reframe it like this:

if someone is so deceived that believe that what the Bible and christianity preaches is what should be done and the highest level of achievement and consciousness is being as Bible God said. (and don’t question)

[Alfonsoo]

Should I even try to change them?

[Nahm]

24 minutes ago, Alfonsoo said:

Should I even try to change them?

That’d be fruitless, impossible and exhausting. 

Are there any other words you could use instead of Truth?  

[zeroISinfinity]

LOVE/GOD 

Speak about paradoxes it's escape religion thread and I say Truth =God. 

Edited August 20, 2020 by zeroISinfinity

[lmfao]

@Alfonsoo Many of my family members and friends are fundamentalist muslims who were born and raised in the west but are still suckers for stage blue religion. Some of them are highly educated, but they're still religious. 

If someones psyche wants to compartmentalise topics, it'll do that. I once heard a story about a creationist who was an excellent cosmologist. 

Part of me still finds it depressing. 

The Quran is written in the style of high stage red and low stage blue, yet many of the people who still believe in islam fundamentally calibrate to higher stages of development. 

---

Between stages in spiral dynamics are interesting dovetail regions, where something or someone exhibits characteristics of two stages strongly. Tiny little random detail

Edited August 20, 2020 by lmfao

[Alfonsoo]

@Nahm would trying to change them be fruitless? how? Of course I don’t want change them just because our psyche doesn’t align, but I genuinely believe the can grow even though they might not see it.

Instead of truth I would say Infinity, God, selflessness, lack of ego, Love, maybe freedom.

[Jay Ray]

 

2 hours ago, Alfonsoo said:

@Jay Ray I’m getting into a lot of dead ends when the argument of “the Bible says so” comes up. And I don’t think saying that just because a book says doesn’t mean it’s true would help the situation. I think they need to realize that by themselves but how to help them get there

this is for sure the biggest issue with this kind of thing that can be looked at as the essence of closed mindedness. It inst exclusively a religious problem in this case. I am still trying to work this out in my head too as I have not come up with a definite way of dealing with this but here is what I have come up with so far. 

"The bible is inherently true, the infallible word of the most holy all powerful God of everything our lord and savor Jesus Christ. " 

Lets look at these kind of sentences which are VERY common and dissect it. Islam does something very similar called a salawat. 

think of a salawat as a sentence and praise which builds up and describes your faith. It is a string of specific words that makes you feel good. It feels good to say these things and has a certain joy about it.  I think this word is useful when looking at Christian stuff a well. 

like the sentence "God is mighty to save, he is mighty to save, Jesus the author of salvation. King of kings and lord of lords. He is risen, He is all powerful and mighty to save, blessed Jesus almighty amen. "  this is a salawat to Jesus and produces pleasure to a Christian when they hear this. as Christianity is a spiritual technology, an apostate like myself can still feel the pleasure of worshiping a god in which I don't believe in anymore. I have the ability to worship anything and feel great from it.  

However, Christians DON'T know this, they think that ONLY Christ can give them this feeling, which is truly a shame. I don't want any person on earth to be limited in such a way. 

 

the "the bible says so" argument is a very hard one to move past.  Because the way in which they identify with is so limited that they cant even think outside Christianity without experiencing major pain and suffering. when athiests would argue with me years ago I felt such fear and dread that it was like the feeling of exposing the most vulnerable part of yourself on stage.  To get past this you need to love them and try and bridge the gap.  I would recommend diving deep into the bible with an open mind which is the opposite of what they did. Over time you can become an expert at the bible and master this outdated technology and give it new life with a non-dual lens. this technology needs an upgrade. really show them what "the bible says" by embodying the Christ consciousness within you.  The amount of mystic verses in the bible is actually quite high but VERY FEW Modern Christians actually "turn the other cheek and love your enemies as yourself" they say these things but really never do them.  A deep redneck stage blue conservative rarely loves his enemies.  

 

watch Christians as they do the salawat. "God is mighty to save, he is the author of salvation, he is lord" their faces light up like a Christmas tree and they have joy on their face. this is one of the only parts of the Technology in which you can join in on. there is some kind of power that anyone can have. this is just a guess but It seems to me to open up the heart Chakra in a small way.