What's a healthy way of engaging someone who's in a Conspiracy Theory rabbit hole?

[Jacobsrw]

On 16/08/2020 at 5:47 PM, Parththakkar12 said:

Your intuition will tell you where you're being biased and where you're headed in the right direction. The closer you are to the truth, the more peaceful and at ease you will feel about it because the Absolute Truth is peace.

The problem is bias functions in such a way that it obscures intuition. Intuition really can only be aided through awareness. And again, if one is deluded how would they know they are operating from intuition? They wouldn’t because the presumption that they are using intuition could be itself a bias. One who is deluded has already self-affirmed they are not, and this, further deluded them. It’s much trickier than it first appears.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Jacobsrw

[Adam M]

@No Self great!

 

My experience:

My girlfriend had fallen into the QANON conspiracy theory hole because some friends of her were EXTREMELY deep into it. I spent hours arguing and debating her about it and she would always get defensive, project onto me, and tell me to "do the research."

So, being a good researcher, I spent about a week exploring this conspiracy theory that basically believes that Trump is a 'secret genius' and that he is destined to expose the elite pedophile ring (which might actually be true). So I did some reading and researching for myself and always realized that every single source of conspiracy theory content was politically biased, mostly coming from a blue/ORANGE paradigm, and completely and utterly lacked any sort of structural thinking. Ultimately, I sent my girlfriend Leo's video "How Ideology Works," she watched the entire thing and had a big awakening and began transcending GREEN into YELLOW. From there, she basically let go of her beliefs and now looks back at how silly she was for defending that ideology.

Coming from someone who studied some of this ideology pretty well for a couple weeks (as a case study into cult psychology), these people are ALWAYS 1st tier thinkers, completely lack self-reflection, and are quick to believe info that supports their pet-theory while always discrediting info that proves it wrong.

This is rabbit hole is a bigger issue than you might think. People who fall into it are RADICALLY adamant that their beliefs are correct and often get defensive when they are questioned...always accusing the questioner of being an ignorant follower of the "fake news."

It's very very difficult to pull someone out of this conspiracy theory hole...especially because the confirmation bias is so strong.

In fact, it has even gotten to the point where these conspiracy theories are now mixed with nuggets of truth (such as spirituality and awakening), which makes them even more believable.

All in all, wouldn't it be funny if much of what these conspiracy theorists are talking about turns out to be true? Who knows... seems unlikely that trump is a secret genius though XD!

 

@Leo Gura

I understand the apprehension for allowing the discussion of this topic, as it is often ideologically charged and can be a breeding ground for misinformation. However, this is a serious epistemological problem in our society and many people (myself included) suffer from having loved ones fall into the rabbit hole. Also, the individuals in this particular thread are discussing the issue in a very level-headed and open-minded way. I'm glad that this is being discussed. Imagine if a close friend or relative all of a sudden became super adamant that Trump is the secret savior of the planet? Many people deal with loved ones who are affected by this mind-virus sickness...

Edited August 16, 2020 by Adam M

[Parththakkar12]

26 minutes ago, Consept said:

Proof doesnt work outside of a materialist paradigm but if we're talking about conspiracy theories they are within the materialist paradigm, so to prove a conspiracy theory you would need proof as you would be the one asserting something not me.

True. But the definition of proof even within the materialist paradigm is very complicated and it changes with time. There can be a lot of argument on what counts as valid proof, what counts as unquestionably true, what counts as 'enough proof', etc.

The reality is that if someone wants to believe a conspiracy theory, they don't need to prove it to anyone. The question we're dealing with is how do we engage with them.

26 minutes ago, Consept said:

for example if you say that belief and intuition in the bible is enough to say that creationism is true you would then have to concede that if someone has belief and intuition in the Bhagavad Gita then multiple Gods are also true, obviously this can not hold up.

If I believe that the Bible is the ultimate authority on the absolute truth, that's enough for me to believe in creationism. That's enough for creationism to be 'true' for me. I don't have to believe that the Bhagvad Gita is true. I will justify my creationism by calling a Hindu 'deluded' for believing that the Bhagvad Gita is the higher authority than the Bible. All of this will be 'true' for me. I don't have to consider the perspective of the Hindu as valid. In fact, I am free to invalidate the perspective of the Hindu to justify the believe that the Bible is the ultimate authority.

Same goes for the Hindu who believes the Bhagvad Gita is a higher authority than the Bible.

26 minutes ago, Consept said:

In general i agree with you on this but i dont see how you can come to believe most conspiracy theories if you follow this method 

The question was 'How do we engage with people close to us who have become conspiracy theorists.' This was my answer.

How they came to believe conspiracy theories would be something you'd do better to ask them.

15 minutes ago, Jacobsrw said:

The problem is bias function in such a way it obscures intuition. Intuition can only be real aided through awareness. And again, if one is deluded how do they know they are operating from intuition? They don’t because the presumption that they are using intuition could be itself a bias. One who is deluded is confirmed they are not, and this, further deluded themselves. It’s much trickier than it first appears.

It's not simple. The best arbiter of whether you're using intuition or not is your emotions. How do your beliefs make you feel? Do they make you feel passionate, high-energy, anxious, fearful? How hard are you willing to fight to defend them? Or do they make you feel calm, stable and peaceful?

The more heated someone gets in defending their beliefs, the less they're operating from intuition. People who are operating from intuition will not feel insecure and defensive about their position.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[Adam M]

22 minutes ago, Jacobsrw said:

The problem is bias function in such a way it obscures intuition. Intuition can only be real aided through awareness. And again, if one is deluded how do they know they are operating from intuition? They don’t because the presumption that they are using intuition could be itself a bias. One who is deluded is confirmed they are not, and this, further deluded themselves. It’s much trickier than it first appears.

Agreed.

My girlfriend would use her 'intution' to justify her beliefs.

Y'know what's even better than intuition? Complex understanding of meta-topics like politics, epistemology, self-bias, cult psychology, awakening, corruption, and especially spiral dynamics. Then, you can use intuition.

These conspiracy theorists are quick to point out that trump is saving the world from elite corruption while conveniently failing to mention Bernie Sanders basically ever. This is a clear-as-day indicator that these ideologically charged, Tier 1 thinkers have no clue what they're talking about.

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by Adam M

[DocWatts]

15 hours ago, Consept said:

@DocWatts Im sorry bro but you havent really had your question answered in this thread. Same thing has happened to me ive had a few friends that have gone down this rabbit hole, what tends to happen is that peoples barrier for asserting something is true or not completely goes out the window once they allow a speculation to be true, then you get a mix of anchoring bias and confirmation bias. All this is brought about by uncertainty which has obviously been exacerbated by the current world events. It is very frustrating to have people around you believe this stuff so i completely sympathise. 

The best resources ive found include the book 'Escaping the Rabbit Hole' by Mick West, he literally talks you through how to talk to a friend that is lost in the rabbit hole and includes a lot of compassion and understanding so its a really good guide. He also runs the website - https://www.metabunk.org/home/ which actively debunks conspiracy theories and has appeared on Joe Rogan so you can search him out there. 

Rebel Wisdom have also done a few videos on conspiracy theories looking at them from a meta perspective which ive found quite interesting as well - 

Awesome; this was exactly what I was looking for, thank you!

[DocWatts]

16 hours ago, No Self said:

Hello everyone, long time lurker but first time poster. I am facing the same predicament as the OP so had to chime in. This is a huge topic but I want to share some of my current research.

According to psychological research, the attraction of conspiracy theories relates to anxiety and a loss of control. By demonising an outgroup as evil and assigning them blame for all bad events, a simple us-versus-them narrative replaces the infinitely complex mess that is reality (as far as the mind is concerned). Note that the various historical acts of violence against Jewish people have all been preceded by stressful times and an uprising of conspiracy theories. 

Another factor is a lack of a sense of belonging to a group/community in our socially-detached modern times. By having a common enemy (Illuminati, round-Earthers, normies, Lamestream Media, Deep State, Hillary's e-mails...), a brotherhood/sisterhood bond is formed and gives people an almost family-like connection. This also benefits from the traumatic bonding and sense of victimhood whenever educated people mock their world view. Indeed, we want a tribe more than we want mere intellectual integrity.

Consider also the crude brilliance of the tactics used. Whenever efforts are made to suppress the spreading of dangerous lies, conspiracy theorists will view this as proof that the wicked media is censoring their truth under the direction of the Deep State. If no such effort is made, the lies of the day spread like wildfire online and they are empowered regardless. Reminds me of a certain president who will either win, or will declare the election as rigged. 

In my opinion, social media is by far the biggest driver of this insanity. Social stressors in society merely create the perfect storm of background conditions. Companies like Facebook derive a maximum of revenue when users spend lots of time on the site consuming a mixture of content and advertisements. The so-called 'brain hacking' algorithms achieve maximum user engagement by progressively feeding more extreme content, and enabling echo chambers which drift further and further from a balanced world-view. Anyone with the slightest insecurity is going to be vulnerable to radicalisation in some form.

None of this answers the OP's question. I haven't seen my friend in some time, and currently cannot due to the pandemic, but I will either have to avoid discussing these topics to avoid losing her altogether, or else artfully try and challenge her views. It is not easy as I find myself getting somewhat triggered by it all. I have a very strong aversion for harmful bullshit which probably stems from my own mother being emotionally unavailable when I was young, due to her Catholic fanaticism.

This article is helpful: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-drawn-to-conspiracy-theories-share-a-cluster-of-psychological-features/

Another one: https://www.businessinsider.com.au/famous-facebook-and-google-investor-condemns-brain-hacking-2017-8?r=US&IR=T

Hope this helps.

It does, and I think you make a number of very good points. I guess what I'm wondering is if this is something that at least some people will mature out of on their own (perhaps once they meet their own deficiency needs). I can confirm, at least anecdotally, that the people in my own life that I've seen this happen to are generally not very happy, and were experiencing problems in other aspects of their life.

Again, because I do generally care about one or two of these people despite the crazy things that have worked their way into their belief structure, does anyone have any first hand experience of someone they've known eventually coming out of the Conspiracy rabbit hole? Is there anything I can do to actually help? Can nudging someone to examine their own belief be helpful, or is it counter productive more often than not?

Edited August 16, 2020 by DocWatts

[DocWatts]

53 minutes ago, Adam M said:

My experience:

My girlfriend had fallen into the QANON conspiracy theory hole because some friends of her were EXTREMELY deep into it. I spent hours arguing and debating her about it and she would always get defensive, project onto me, and tell me to "do the research."

So, being a good researcher, I spent about a week exploring this conspiracy theory that basically believes that Trump is a 'secret genius' and that he is destined to expose the elite pedophile ring (which might actually be true). So I did some reading and researching for myself and always realized that every single source of conspiracy theory content was politically biased, mostly coming from a blue/ORANGE paradigm, and completely and utterly lacked any sort of structural thinking. Ultimately, I sent my girlfriend Leo's video "How Ideology Works," she watched the entire thing and had a big awakening and began transcending GREEN into YELLOW. From there, she basically let go of her beliefs and now looks back at how silly she was for defending that ideology.

Coming from someone who studied some of this ideology pretty well for a couple weeks (as a case study into cult psychology), these people are ALWAYS 1st tier thinkers, completely lack self-reflection, and are quick to believe info that supports their pet-theory while always discrediting info that proves it wrong.

This is rabbit hole is a bigger issue than you might think. People who fall into it are RADICALLY adamant that their beliefs are correct and often get defensive when they are questioned...always accusing the questioner of being an ignorant follower of the "fake news."

It's very very difficult to pull someone out of this conspiracy theory hole...especially because the confirmation bias is so strong.

In fact, it has even gotten to the point where these conspiracy theories are now mixed with nuggets of truth (such as spirituality and awakening), which makes them even more believable.

All in all, wouldn't it be funny if much of what these conspiracy theorists are talking about turns out to be true? Who knows... seems unlikely that trump is a secret genius though XD!

I'll second the 'How Ideology Works' video as incredibly insightful, but I don't see it being as useful for people who don't already possess a certain degree of self-awareness; as in I can  see that video being misinterpreted and used to solidify one's own confirmation bias by people at lower stages on the spiral (ie applying it to your ideological opponents, but not being self aware enough to see that you yourself are in an ideology).

But I'm glad that you were able to use it to actually help someone in your life, and perhaps it goes to show that my previous statement might not be entirely true. And it sounds like you put in some serious work to research her point of view, before introducing her to the 'How Ideology Works 'video.

Edited August 16, 2020 by DocWatts

[Quader]

The desire to explore science and mathematics is not a one off type deal. You and your buddies should foster these conversations for aeons to come. The topics that you choose to investigate scientifically will change and so will the methodologies to verify/delineate. It really does come to nurturing a spirit for exploration, YOLO. 

[Jacobsrw]

On 17/08/2020 at 0:56 AM, Parththakkar12 said:

It's not simple. The best arbiter of whether you're using intuition or not is your emotions. How do your beliefs make you feel? Do they make you feel passionate, high-energy, anxious, fearful? How hard are you willing to fight to defend them? Or do they make you feel calm, stable and peaceful?

The more heated someone gets in defending their beliefs, the less they're operating from intuition. People who are operating from intuition will not feel insecure and defensive about their position.

Well, emotions are even trickier. They are implicit and have to be first fed through the filters of the mind. If you are maintaining a mental position such of frustration you are likely to conceive of strong energetic surges in the body as anger. The mind misconceives emotions endlessly to aggrandise it’s own beliefs. Because fundamentally the mind is only worries about two things (1) categorising it’s experience (2) survival. No function can be fully trusted but awareness. It is the primary function from which you exist.

But yes, I agree. The more defensive one is the less likely they are operating from intuition. Intuition requires no defence.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by Jacobsrw

[Jacobsrw]

On 17/08/2020 at 0:56 AM, Adam M said:

Y'know what's even better than intuition? Complex understanding of meta-topics like politics, epistemology, self-bias, cult psychology, awakening, corruption, and especially spiral dynamics. Then, you can use intuition.

These conspiracy theorists are quick to point out that trump is saving the world from elite corruption while conveniently failing to mention Bernie Sanders basically ever. This is a clear-as-day indicator that these ideologically charged, Tier 1 thinkers have no clue what they're talking about.

 

I very much agree.

Yes this is a problem. The main issue I see is the ceaseless need for some individuals to use a theory as a mechanism of defence to their own insecurities and inadequacies. And because of the sheer magnitude it takes to admit responsibility, each insecure civilian would rather locate an antagonist in which to blame such that it displaces their responsibility

Edited August 18, 2020 by Jacobsrw

[Rajneeshpuram]

On 16/8/2020 at 4:49 PM, Adam M said:

@No Self great!

 

My experience:

My girlfriend had fallen into the QANON conspiracy theory hole because some friends of her were EXTREMELY deep into it. I spent hours arguing and debating her about it and she would always get defensive, project onto me, and tell me to "do the research."

So, being a good researcher, I spent about a week exploring this conspiracy theory that basically believes that Trump is a 'secret genius' and that he is destined to expose the elite pedophile ring (which might actually be true). So I did some reading and researching for myself and always realized that every single source of conspiracy theory content was politically biased, mostly coming from a blue/ORANGE paradigm, and completely and utterly lacked any sort of structural thinking. Ultimately, I sent my girlfriend Leo's video "How Ideology Works," she watched the entire thing and had a big awakening and began transcending GREEN into YELLOW. From there, she basically let go of her beliefs and now looks back at how silly she was for defending that ideology.

Coming from someone who studied some of this ideology pretty well for a couple weeks (as a case study into cult psychology), these people are ALWAYS 1st tier thinkers, completely lack self-reflection, and are quick to believe info that supports their pet-theory while always discrediting info that proves it wrong.

This is rabbit hole is a bigger issue than you might think. People who fall into it are RADICALLY adamant that their beliefs are correct and often get defensive when they are questioned...always accusing the questioner of being an ignorant follower of the "fake news."

It's very very difficult to pull someone out of this conspiracy theory hole...especially because the confirmation bias is so strong.

In fact, it has even gotten to the point where these conspiracy theories are now mixed with nuggets of truth (such as spirituality and awakening), which makes them even more believable.

All in all, wouldn't it be funny if much of what these conspiracy theorists are talking about turns out to be true? Who knows... seems unlikely that trump is a secret genius though XD!

 

@Leo Gura

I understand the apprehension for allowing the discussion of this topic, as it is often ideologically charged and can be a breeding ground for misinformation. However, this is a serious epistemological problem in our society and many people (myself included) suffer from having loved ones fall into the rabbit hole. Also, the individuals in this particular thread are discussing the issue in a very level-headed and open-minded way. I'm glad that this is being discussed. Imagine if a close friend or relative all of a sudden became super adamant that Trump is the secret savior of the planet? Many people deal with loved ones who are affected by this mind-virus sickness...

The problem is, what if that fake ridiculous theories like Qanon are created to distract people's attention from the  conspiracies that are real? In my country there's the term "controlled dissidence" for that concept.

Child traffic and pedo elites is a real thing, see  the Epstein case.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Rajneeshpuram