What's a healthy way of engaging someone who's in a Conspiracy Theory rabbit hole?

[DocWatts]

I have a friend of mine who's fallen down a right wing conspiracy theory rabbit hole: everything from Plandemic, to Black Lives Matter being a conspiracy funded by George Soros to install a Bolshevik style government in America. This is someone who wasn't really overtly political a few years ago, and who I consider to be a decent guy overall. I guess my question is has anyone found a healthy way of engaging with someone who's fallen into a Conspiracy Theory rabbit hole, in a way where they won't get immediately defensive when the subject is broached? I realize there are healthy and unhealthy manifestations of different political views, and I see what my friend has fallen into as very toxic (and not to mention really off putting to other people).

I'm very well aware of Spiral Dynamics, but there's a difference between understanding a model on an intellectual level, and actualizing it in a way where you can employ it successfully in day to day interactions. I know the answer here is probably that he needs to move from an unhealthy and toxic version of Red to stage Blue, but what would that look like on a practical level? Has anyone found successful examples of what that would look like in their own lives?

Edited August 15, 2020 by DocWatts

[Parththakkar12]

@DocWatts You're not gonna like my answer. The answer is to look at your resistance to conspiracy theories. Why are you so scared of them? What is it about the theories themselves (or the people who believe them) that terrifies you so much?

Then the next step would be to consider them with an open mind. As Leo said in his last video on openmindedness, consider them with an open mind without having to fully believe them. If you really want to honestly conclude that they are indeed BS, you will have to consider the possibility that they could be right first. Then you can do an honest investigation to figure out what's what. A lot of the judgement and hatred comes from the fear 'What if they're right?'.

If you're able to prove them wrong, you will not be scared of them anymore. However, if you're proven wrong by them, well..... that's a potential consequence you'll have to be prepared for before you do the investigation.

[DrewNows]

4 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

If you're able to prove them wrong, you will not be scared of them anymore. However, if you're proven wrong by them, well..... that's a potential consequence you'll have to be prepared for before you do the investigation.

Good stuff and just to add something here: if we want to prove a “conspiracy theory” wrong we can and will find the information to support that. When exploring conspiracy theory content, we have to completely detach, let go of the beliefs, be prepared to actually seek to disprove what was originally believed to be true. Also do not trust Google, use DuckDuckGo search engine to avoid the information created to pull you back or throw you off track...help someone help you step into their shoes, drop all games/models, like politics and spiral dynamics, so they don’t cause influence on your ability to explore 

I would define a conspiracy theory as simply misunderstood information. Whether it’s labeled or pushed with an agenda, it’s always misunderstood no matter where you stand. The trick is to stop standing still, get off the ground 

[DocWatts]

@Parththakkar12   You're right, I didn't like that answer .  I don't look at people who buy into conspiracy theories as bad people, but I do see the obvious harm that comes from believing in baseless conspiracy theories; I've also seen how toxic and isolating they can be for the person who stitches a worldview together out of them (again, this post was born out of concern for a friend of mine who's manifesting his conspiracy theory beliefs in an unhealthy and isolating way).

 As far as your suggestion, are there any resources in particular you would recommend to understand this subject matter on a deeper level, and perhaps help me to empathize more fully with people who hold these beliefs? 

Edited August 15, 2020 by DocWatts

[Parththakkar12]

@DocWatts David Icke is the most obvious resource on conspiracy theories. You can find him on bitchute. There's a lot more, I don't feel comfortable naming too many names actually. I don't want to break forum guidelines.

A lot of conspiracy theories are about 'elites' lying to the masses about a whole bunch of stuff. This seems impossible to someone who has never considered conspiracy theories, because most people lack an understanding of systems. I'd highly recommend studying how systems work, what high leverage points are there, who controls information, who controls the definition of 'truth' vs 'falsehood', 'fact' vs 'fiction', 'reality' vs 'delusion'. The question I want you to ask yourself is - Given the way our systems work, is it possible for the elites to get away with as much as the conspiracy theorists claim? Is it a valid possibility, or is it just logically impossible? That's where I'd start my investigation if I were in your position.

[DocWatts]

2 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

@DocWatts David Icke is the most obvious resource on conspiracy theories. You can find him on bitchute. There's a lot more, I don't feel comfortable naming too many names actually. I don't want to break forum guidelines.

A lot of conspiracy theories are about 'elites' lying to the masses about a whole bunch of stuff. This seems impossible to someone who has never considered conspiracy theories, because most people lack an understanding of systems. I'd highly recommend studying how systems work, what high leverage points are there, who controls information, who controls the definition of 'truth' vs 'falsehood', 'fact' vs 'fiction', 'reality' vs 'delusion'. The question I want you to ask yourself is - Given the way our systems work, is it possible for the elites to get away with as much as the conspiracy theorists claim? Is it a valid possibility, or is it just logically impossible? That's where I'd start my investigation if I were in your position.

Awesome, thanks for the suggestion.

[DrewNows]

@DocWatts everything in the documentary shared here seems to be great subject matter to explore, there's so much inner work that must be done with the outer work of simply investigating/researching, so taking care of the inner before dealing with the outer is the way to go about it. if you cannot yet step into their shoes, you must first be willing 

 

[Sri McDonald Trump Maharaj]

I met up with an old friend who I haven't seen in years and found out that he was in to the whole Jewish conspiracy thories and later found out that he had denied the holoucaust. I just let him be, I can't really argue against it because I'm not intelligent enough. I did find this video interessting though. 

 

[DocWatts]

59 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

Good stuff and just to add something here: if we want to prove a “conspiracy theory” wrong we can and will find the information to support that. When exploring conspiracy theory content, we have to completely detach, let go of the beliefs, be prepared to actually seek to disprove what was originally believed to be true. Also do not trust Google, use DuckDuckGo search engine to avoid the information created to pull you back or throw you off track...help someone help you step into their shoes, drop all games/models, like politics and spiral dynamics, so they don’t cause influence on your ability to explore 

I would define a conspiracy theory as simply misunderstood information. Whether it’s labeled or pushed with an agenda, it’s always misunderstood no matter where you stand. The trick is to stop standing still, get off the ground 

Not disagreeing with you, but as far as setting aside models and whatnot, isn't having some sort of context for the subject matter you're studying quite important? Aren't fields of study such as systems thinking and epistemology models in a sense as well?  Of course I do realize that I am viewing it from my own particular lens that I need to take into account, but if you're interested enough in a subject to spend time and energy researching it, I imagine that you're going to have some sort of emotional attachment going in, that you can try to account for as best as you can.

Edited August 15, 2020 by DocWatts

[DrewNows]

5 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

Not disagreeing with you, but as far as setting aside models and whatnot, isn't having some sort of context for the subject matter you're studying quite important? Aren't fields of study such as systems thinking and epistemology models in a sense as well?  Of course I do realize that I am viewing it from my own particular lens that I need to take into account, but if you're interested enough in a subject to spend time and energy researching it, I imagine that you're going to have some sort of emotional attachment going in, that you can try to account for as best as you can.

good point. We can learn not to rely on models and games as a crutch for warranting the avoidance of discomfort. Models and games are fun and even beneficial but they do not need to run our perceptions 

7 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

Aren't fields of study such as systems thinking and epistemology models in a sense as well?

Of course our reality is a model in of itself, the mind works as a function to relate to itself. 

Sometimes we must allow ourselves to become attached emotionally until we are ready to let it go. Don't judge, just allow and take it slow 

[DrewNows]

@DocWatts give yourself permission to be the only authority, you are All. All systems down, you are the creator of them all, bring awareness to every system being activated while you're exploring and researching 

[Parththakkar12]

18 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

Not disagreeing with you, but as far as setting aside models and whatnot, isn't having some sort of context for the subject matter you're studying quite important? Aren't fields of study such as systems thinking and epistemology models in a sense as well?  Of course I do realize that I am viewing it from my own particular lens that I need to take into account, but if you're interested enough in a subject to spend time and energy researching it, I imagine that you're going to have some sort of emotional attachment going in, that you can try to account for as best as you can.

Your intuition is the ultimate arbiter of the truth. Rely only on that. The way you access your intuition is, ironically, through emotional awareness. I'm not saying that being irrational/emotionally carried away is more objective than being rational, rather I'm saying that it's only through sorting through your emotional attachments can you really find the voice of your intuition.

[DocWatts]

2 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Your intuition is the ultimate arbiter of the truth. Rely only on that. The way you access your intuition is, ironically, through emotional awareness. I'm not saying that being irrational/emotionally carried away is more objective than being rational, rather I'm saying that it's only through sorting through your emotional attachments can you really find the voice of your intuition.

I guess then I would ask, on an epistemological level, what makes intuition a better arbiter of truth than other modes of being, since intuition has its own limitations and can be misleading at times. I would think that you what you would want is some sort of integration between intuition, emotional awareness, and study of the external world, informing each other in some sort of feedback loop.

...wow, guess we've strayed a bit from the topic at hand, eh? In an interesting way of course.

[Dryas]

24 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Your intuition is the ultimate arbiter of the truth. Rely only on that. The way you access your intuition is, ironically, through emotional awareness. I'm not saying that being irrational/emotionally carried away is more objective than being rational, rather I'm saying that it's only through sorting through your emotional attachments can you really find the voice of your intuition.

My intuition is literally the most useless thing out there. I can intuit that x theory is true or not but also not know if it is just a self deception/bias. How do you resolve this problem? Also, this is why I largely rely on my rational side.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Dryas

[Parththakkar12]

@DocWatts @Dryas Your intuition is the universe talking to you. When you contemplate a certain question, the universe gives you ideas, or hints, or clues, or outright answers. It shows you the way to greater Self-Awareness, which is what the Universe (aka You) is ultimately after.

Your mind creates your reality. The way it does this is through energetic frequencies, also known as emotions. Emotions are 'Energy in motion'. So, 'the external world' is a mirror of your internal world.

This is something you can wake up to - On an energetic level, or on an emotional level, we are all One. To have empathy for someone is to be able to feel their emotions. Because of the Oneness on an emotional level, empathy is possible. So, in reality, there is no difference between 'your emotions' and 'someone else's emotions'. It's all You!

1 hour ago, Dryas said:

My intuition is literally the most useless thing out there. I can intuit that x theory is true or not but also not know if it is just a self deception/bias. How do you resolve this problem? Also, this is why I largely rely on my rational side.

There is a difference between intuition and rationalization. Rationalization is something your mind does, your mind comes up with possible explanations or theories on stuff. However, intuition is a somatic knowing. You will feel a deep, stable knowing relative to the topic at hand.

This is why emotional awareness is such a key to accessing your intuition. Leo talks a lot about using psychedelics to gain this awareness. I know nothing about psychedelics, so I won't comment on them.

[DocWatts]

 

Quote

Your mind creates your reality. The way it does this is through energetic frequencies, also known as emotions. Emotions are 'Energy in motion'. So, 'the external world' is a mirror of your internal world.

@Parththakkar12 So I suppose my resistance to this would be seeing this as a bit reductionist, as it seems to me that both internal subjective experiences and an external objective world are both important facets of reality. Or to to put it another way, if something like logical positivism is reductionist by discounting the subjective world in favor of what can be objectively measured, this perhaps to seem to me reductionist in favoring subjective experience and discounting the possibility of an external reality. I'll admit upfront that it's possible I may be misunderstanding this perspective, and alot of my thinking in this area is influenced by philosophers such as Thomas Nagel,  who talks about ways of integrating subjective experience into an external reality.

Edited August 15, 2020 by DocWatts

[Dryas]

18 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

@DocWatts @Dryas Your intuition is the universe talking to you. When you contemplate a certain question, the universe gives you ideas, or hints, or clues, or outright answers. It shows you the way to greater Self-Awareness, which is what the Universe (aka You) is ultimately after.

Your mind creates your reality. The way it does this is through energetic frequencies, also known as emotions. Emotions are 'Energy in motion'. So, 'the external world' is a mirror of your internal world.

This is something you can wake up to - On an energetic level, or on an emotional level, we are all One. To have empathy for someone is to be able to feel their emotions. Because of the Oneness on an emotional level, empathy is possible. So, in reality, there is no difference between 'your emotions' and 'someone else's emotions'. It's all You!

But I can't take your word for it.

Quote

There is a difference between intuition and rationalization. Rationalization is something your mind does, your mind comes up with possible explanations or theories on stuff. However, intuition is a somatic knowing. You will feel a deep, stable knowing relative to the topic at hand.

And what if that deep sense of knowing is complete bullshit? How can I know? A lot of 'deluded' people are very confident in what they believe in too. When it comes to something like enlightenment, for example, a guru can tell me meditate for x amount of hours and you'll become aware of the absolute. What about intuition? Do I just wait for my intuition to kick in, or what? Again comparing intuition with enlightenment, I know that people/gurus/traditions reach(ed) to somewhat similar conclusions. Can I be equally sure when relying on intuition? Lets say a hundred people flawlessly do what you're saying.. so are you 100% positive that they will reach the same or similar conclusions?

Edited August 15, 2020 by Dryas

[Parththakkar12]

20 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

 

@Parththakkar12 So I suppose my resistance to this would be seeing this as a bit reductionist, as it seems to me that both internal subjective experiences and an external objective world are both important facets of reality. Or to to put it another way, if something like logical positivism is reductionist by discounting the subjective world in favor of what can be objectively measured, this perhaps to seem to me reductionist in favoring subjective experience and discounting the possibility of an external reality. I'll admit upfront that it's possible I may be misunderstanding this perspective, and alot of my thinking in this area is influenced by philosophers such as Thomas Nagel,  who talks about ways of integrating subjective experience into an external reality.

I respect your background. I'm not favoring 'subjective' experience over 'objective' experience. I'm saying there is no difference between the two, it's all One.

Leo has a really amazing video on 'What is Perception'. Mind-blowingly amazing video.

16 minutes ago, Dryas said:

But I can't take your word for it.

I'm not telling you to. I'm telling you my experience. You can do your own investigation on this.

16 minutes ago, Dryas said:

A lot of 'deluded' people are very confident in what they believe in too.

I disagree with you on this. They tend to want to defend their beliefs a lot, which is a sign of fake confidence masquerading as real confidence. Someone who is really confident will not need to defend their beliefs.

16 minutes ago, Dryas said:

When it comes to something like enlightenment, for example, a guru can tell me meditate for x amount of hours and you'll become aware of the absolute. What about intuition? Do I just wait for my intuition to kick in, or what?

Your intuition is with you at all moments of the day. It is talking to you through your emotions. Emotions are somatically felt. So, if you want to access your intuition, the way to do it would be to pay attention to somatic sensations. Things like buzzing, heaviness in the belly, lightness, etc.

If you really want to go deep into this, I highly recommend watching Teal Swan's youtube channel. She goes into a lot of detail on this.

16 minutes ago, Dryas said:

Again comparing intuition with enlightenment, I know that people/gurus/traditions reach(ed) to somewhat similar conclusions. Can I be equally sure when relying on intuition? Lets say a hundred people flawlessly do what you're saying.. so are you 100% positive that they will reach the same or similar conclusion?

YES!! That is the unbelievable part. Oneness is the Absolute Truth. So, if you have a disagreement, what this means is that at least one person is deluding themselves. If everyone does an honest investigation by accessing their intuition, my claim is they will arrive at the same conclusion.

[DocWatts]

Quote

I respect your background. I'm not favoring 'subjective' experience over 'objective' experience. I'm saying there is no difference between the two, it's all One.

@Parththakkar12  Thanks for clearing up this misconception then. Would characterizing this viewpoint as the "compatibilist"  (akin to the how that terms is used in free will discussion) , or perhaps the "integrated" view of reality be a fair way to put it?

[Dryas]

@Parththakkar12

Quote

Your intuition is with you at all moments of the day. It is talking to you through your emotions. Emotions are somatically felt. So, if you want to access your intuition, the way to do it would be to pay attention to somatic sensations. Things like buzzing, heaviness in the belly, lightness, etc.

If you really want to go deep into this, I highly recommend watching Teal Swan's youtube channel. She goes into a lot of detail on this.

Alright, I'll check it out.

Quote

YES!! That is the unbelievable part. Oneness is the Absolute Truth. So, if you have a disagreement, what this means is that at least one person is deluding themselves. If everyone does an honest investigation by accessing their intuition, my claim is they will arrive at the same conclusion.

Interesting. I'd find it a lot more convincing if you had some sort of data to back that up, but I understand, its about direct experience isn't it.

One thing, though. Does this also mean that one could not really explain why they reached the conclusion that they did?

Edited August 15, 2020 by Dryas