Should Industrial Society collapse?

[tuckerwphotography]

12 hours ago, Matt23 said:

I haven't studied or viewed all his videos on it, but one part of his vision is basically a global civilization where people live in smaller communities which feed the human spirit and provide all our basic needs.  Then we incorporate the technological side to assist us with our work; meaning we do our work online with people around the world, but then we live in communities which take care of all our basic needs so we're not just isolated with the online community.

@Leo Gura @Matt23 This is already happening and already exist, at least at a small scale. I spent some time at Dancing Rabbit Ecovillage where hundreds of adults and families live together in harmony in an eco friendly way, most working Internet day jobs to cover living expenses. When I was visiting there, I would do exactly what Jordan Hall is describing...I'd be pitching on a big film project with my coworkers back in LA, then as soon as my Zoom conversations were over and my emails were sent, I'd go play frisbee on the community lawn, join a group of people making homemade pizzas, go on a walk in the woods, etc. It's like a Green's version of eco paradise combined with the best of the Internet. Certainly it was far from a Utopia due to conflicts among people living in the community, and people still had to do stressful shitty day jobs. But it was far more "humanizing" to be living in a true community and in nature.

The problem I see is that currently, at this moment, this only appeals to a very small segment of society. But as Americans continue to evolve up the spiral, I imagine we'll be seeing more and more of these communities and perhaps one day even small cities like what Jordan is describing. It will likely take generations to get there, but it's already happening and COVID is only accelerating this trend. 

[Member]

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If you want to build Utopia, first you gotta genetically engineer a new race of humans who are 10x more selfless and conscious than current humans. And replace all the old humans until none are left.

People are selfish primarily because of education and because they have no examples to follow.

Genetically engineer? It's kinda odd to hear this from you.

[Carl-Richard]

21 minutes ago, Member said:

People are selfish primarily because of education and because they have no examples to follow.

Genetically engineer? It's kinda odd to hear this from you.

Learn to take a hypothetical lmao. People are selfish by nature. To become selfless as an individual takes a lot. For a society to become collecively selfless is virtually impossible.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Carl-Richard

[DocWatts]

20 hours ago, tuckerwphotography said:

@DocWatts Thanks! I recently read Diamond's "The World Until Yesterday" which was a good read. My sense from Collapse (watched his TEDTalk) is that he's focusing on relatively small societies compared to the entire United States or the globalized world as a whole, which doesn't make his conclusions any less valid just interesting to think about how these issues could or may scale up, and the impacts of that.

It would be interesting to do a study on what Spiral Dynamics level these societies were at when they collapsed...I'm guessing mainly Red and Blue. Red not thinking ahead and committing suicide in the name of power. Blue being stubbornly stuck in its ways and refusing to adapt/innovate. Partly why Trump has been so frightening as a leader during this increasingly fragile moment in human history. My hope is as Western countries progress into late Orange, Green and even Yellow, that real changes can finally begin to materialize. Green can bring the impassioned need for environmental solutions, Orange can meet the demands via cutting-edge innovation and quick thinking, and Yellow can holistically implement and manage the massive and surely disruptive shifts. Of course, this is a plausible reality but also potentially wicked naive and overly optimistic - I concede that. But, hey, let's give it all we got, no?

That's absolutely a fair point (although in fairness one of the civilization collapses he does cover is that book is the classic Maya collapse). I guess there's not  as many examples to look to for large industrial society collapsing, much less a globalized civilization like the one we live in today. Since the sort of world we're living in is unprecedented in human history, there's not really anything comparable we can look to to say what will happen if it does collapse someday. One through line I did get from the book is that societies are at a risk of collapse when there is a conflict between the short term interest of the elites and the long term survival of the society, especially when the elites are able to isolate themselves from the problems of the society... and doesn't exactly inspire optimism for our own society, I'm sorry to say.  Though I will say that he does go out of his way to emphasize that societies can and have pulled back from the precipice, and we do have a choice in the matter. 

If  you're interested in Jared Diamond's work, I'd also highly recommend his newest book, Upheaval, which deals more directly with modern industrialized societies. The book is basically a case study of how various modern nation states have either successfully or unsuccessfully dealt with periods of crisis, and like Collapse, attempts to draw out commonalities. One incredibly interesting case study in particular was that of Finland, and of the delicate tightrope they needed to walk to avoid being swallowed up by their more powerful neighbor, the Soviet Union, during the Cold War.  

Edited August 16, 2020 by DocWatts

[Matt23]

9 hours ago, tuckerwphotography said:

@Leo Gura @Matt23 This is already happening and already exist, at least at a small scale. I spent some time at Dancing Rabbit Ecovillage where hundreds of adults and families live together in harmony in an eco friendly way, most working Internet day jobs to cover living expenses. When I was visiting there, I would do exactly what Jordan Hall is describing...I'd be pitching on a big film project with my coworkers back in LA, then as soon as my Zoom conversations were over and my emails were sent, I'd go play frisbee on the community lawn, join a group of people making homemade pizzas, go on a walk in the woods, etc. It's like a Green's version of eco paradise combined with the best of the Internet. Certainly it was far from a Utopia due to conflicts among people living in the community, and people still had to do stressful shitty day jobs. But it was far more "humanizing" to be living in a true community and in nature.

The problem I see is that currently, at this moment, this only appeals to a very small segment of society. But as Americans continue to evolve up the spiral, I imagine we'll be seeing more and more of these communities and perhaps one day even small cities like what Jordan is describing. It

will likely take generations to get there, but it's already happening and COVID is only accelerating this trend. 

@tuckerwphotography I can also see how value systems would be a major blockage to moving in this direction.  I can see, even in myself, times when I clung (...right verbiage? haha... "clinged") to a choice (i.e., a value) even though it wasn't necessarily the wisest or most truthful choice to make.  slight tangent: I even hesitate to say wisest since maybe it was the wisest choice, but I'm simply not able to perceive the complexity of life such that I can determine what's wise or not.  back on topic:  I can see how it may take more pain in order for people to switch perspectives, views, actions, and values.  Sometimes you gotta take several blows to the head to start wearing a helmet.

[The Don]

On 8/16/2020 at 9:33 AM, Leo Gura said:

The problem is it doesn't work in practice because people are selfish and power-hungry assholes.

True.