Should Industrial Society collapse?

[tuckerwphotography]

There's a growing trend in progressive, environmental stage Green circles that are gleefully cheerleading the collapse of industrial society, at times suggesting that the only sign of courage is to help it collapse as fast as possible. What are your thoughts on this? To me it strikes me as naive, far underestimating the impacts that the collapse of such an inconceivably massive globalized system would have on the world, especially in communities that are already extremely marginalized (like urban ghettos which rely almost entirely on industrial society for survival). 

Certainly the course we're on is unsustainable (to say the least) and something massive needs to shift, so perhaps the collapse is inevitable and necessary. But I'm not sure if I would be so quick to cheer it on as if it's just another political policy agenda. It's so complicated and the implications seem unknowable. What do you think?

Edited August 14, 2020 by tuckerwphotography

[Roy]

The only solution is massive reduction of standard of living (voluntary or not) for everyone across the board, as well as redistribution of wealth and MUCH higher taxes on the wealthy.

The alternative? Well let's just say I hope you don't mind blood.

[tuckerwphotography]

6 minutes ago, Roy said:

The only solution is massive reduction of standard of living (voluntary or not) for everyone across the board, as well as redistribution of wealth and MUCH higher taxes on the wealthy.

@Roy I agree...but doesn't this require some form of Industrial Society and a functioning government to implement? If society collapses, the government would theoretically collapse with it, and then it's a dog-eat-dog world, everyone fending for themselves...presumably?

[Roy]

1 minute ago, tuckerwphotography said:

I agree...but doesn't this require some form of Industrial Society and a functioning government to implement?

Yes. It will just need tighter regulation and more sensible taxation. The solutions are there, it's just difficult to get people to vote for them.

[tuckerwphotography]

Perhaps what could happen is that instead of it getting to a point where the "entire" system collapses (whatever that looks like), we can instead transition to a new world via a series of small collapses such as the one we're experiencing right now with COVID, which has forced billions of people, companies and governments around the world to adapt and find new innovative solutions in a very short window of time. For example billions of people around the world are now working from home via the Internet, and many companies (i.e. Google) are questioning whether large office complexes are necessary in the future. Imagine if we no longer clear cut the land for large office buildings and big box stores, malls, etc, and instead many could work from home, allowing us to spend more time with our families, requiring far less infrastructure. But many folks, especially young unmarried people, would feel more lonely and isolated working from home, which would encourage people to start communities together like co-housing ecovillages where people use even less resources because they're shared amongst many people. This helps solve the loneliness epidemic plaguing the western world. I could see a series of positive chain reactions happening each time a small collapse takes place, but the major distinction I'm making is that if the entire system goes down that will, in my estimation, lead to total chaos, bloodshed and unimaginable consequences. 

Edited August 14, 2020 by tuckerwphotography

[Lindsay]

Instead of saying collapse, how about saying transition to the digital economy ect... 

[Leo Gura]

Not ever gonna happen.

You can't put the baby back in the vagina.

It's naive to even want that, since living at stage Purple is rough business. Do you really wanna be wiping your ass with your hands?

[Rolo]

19 hours ago, tuckerwphotography said:

There's a growing trend in progressive, environmental stage Green circles that are gleefully cheerleading the collapse of industrial society, at times suggesting that the only sign of courage is to help it collapse as fast as possible.

Industrial society provides the progressives with the technology to express their opinion, if anything, progressives would want the industrial sociotey to evolve into a more stage green sociotey.

The fork in the road is greedy politicians that value money over the wellbeing of human beings. I Hope the information age makes their kids evolve to a more green way of being.

 

Edited August 15, 2020 by Rolo

[Lyubov]

It's just anger being expressed. I sometimes find myself feeling this way but I know it is an awful idea. Green has some idealistic issues with it that can make it sound foolish.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Lyubov

[tuckerwphotography]

7 hours ago, Lindsay said:

Instead of saying collapse, how about saying transition to the digital economy ect... 

@Lindsay Most of my Green friends definitely do not want more digital technology. All the conversations revolve around using less technology and spending more time in nature, basically re-integrating aspects of Purple into the spiral. Spending solitude in nature including vision quests have been a huge part of my growth up the spiral into Yellow, so I definitely see the merits of this for individuals ready to live that way. But to suggest the entire globe needs to suddenly and drastically shift into the lifestyles that Greeners demand feels unrealistic and foolish, not to mention controlling. My experience is that Green people value all life (not just humans) equally (which is noble in theory), but in practice their solutions are to go back to living in small self-governed communities/tribes that are self-reliant and basically look a whole lot like stage Purple with a few modern amenities. And if there's pushback to the argument the rebuttal is that climate change will force us to live this way if we don't choose it on our own. The Green in me resonates with these values (like stopping the ecocide that's taking place), but I think overall there is a failure of systemic solutions that meet the needs of people where they're at, not just where Greens wish they were at...

[Apparition of Jack]

As with all sentiments, there's some truth to these feelings. In a sense we have gone too far away from nature and too many people do feel alienated as a result. The problem is going overboard with it and then claiming everything would be perfect if we just gave up cars and electricity and the internet and just lived off the land like our ancient ancestors did.

I think the right solution would be to take that nugget of wisdom and then integrate it into the understanding that technology is here to stay. One of my favourite current literally / aesthetic genres is Solarpunk. The idea is a future envisioned where an understanding of ecology and the natural processes of earth are integrated with and moderates our use of technology and urban planning, which to me is the sort of future we should be aspiring towards.

 

[Rajneeshpuram]

21 hours ago, Roy said:

The only solution is massive reduction of standard of living (voluntary or not) for everyone across the board, as well as redistribution of wealth and MUCH higher taxes on the wealthy.

The alternative? Well let's just say I hope you don't mind blood.

I live in Spain and here the government is starting to suggest that people who recieve the UBI should do forced labour. More than a liberation this is becoming like a north korean dictatorship.

[diamondpenguin]

Stage green people really do have an infatuation with purple. 

[DocWatts]

If you're interested in the subject matter, Jared Diamond (author of Guns, Germs, and Steel) has written extensively on this topic. His book 'Collapse' is a systems level examination of a number of different cultures which have collapsed, and attempts to draw out some commonalities between them. He focuses in particular on societies whose collapse was due at least in part on environmental and sustainability factors.


 

[tuckerwphotography]

@DocWatts Thanks! I recently read Diamond's "The World Until Yesterday" which was a good read. My sense from Collapse (watched his TEDTalk) is that he's focusing on relatively small societies compared to the entire United States or the globalized world as a whole, which doesn't make his conclusions any less valid just interesting to think about how these issues could or may scale up, and the impacts of that.

It would be interesting to do a study on what Spiral Dynamics level these societies were at when they collapsed...I'm guessing mainly Red and Blue. Red not thinking ahead and committing suicide in the name of power. Blue being stubbornly stuck in its ways and refusing to adapt/innovate. Partly why Trump has been so frightening as a leader during this increasingly fragile moment in human history. My hope is as Western countries progress into late Orange, Green and even Yellow, that real changes can finally begin to materialize. Green can bring the impassioned need for environmental solutions, Orange can meet the demands via cutting-edge innovation and quick thinking, and Yellow can holistically implement and manage the massive and surely disruptive shifts. Of course, this is a plausible reality but also potentially wicked naive and overly optimistic - I concede that. But, hey, let's give it all we got, no?

[Matt23]

A stage Yellow's vision for a future culture and its design.  

I haven't studied or viewed all his videos on it, but one part of his vision is basically a global civilization where people live in smaller communities which feed the human spirit and provide all our basic needs.  Then we incorporate the technological side to assist us with our work; meaning we do our work online with people around the world, but then we live in communities which take care of all our basic needs so we're not just isolated with the online community.

[Leo Gura]

There is a long history of people wanting to build Utopia.

The problem is it doesn't work in practice because people are selfish and power-hungry assholes.

Survival runs the show, not high ideals.

If you want to build Utopia, first you gotta genetically engineer a new race of humans who are 10x more selfless and conscious than current humans. And replace all the old humans until none are left.

And even then, it will be iffy.

[Shunyata]

@Leo Gura a new kingdom of heaven with saintly beings reincarnated was prophecized a long time ago. human race will be on the brink of extinction until everyone would adopt purity of soul. it's very possible and it's going to happen no matter what you believe about others. 

Edited August 16, 2020 by Shunyata

[Carl-Richard]

No matter how many societies must collapse, they must sooner or later go through this stage we're currently in. Green's fondness of purple is funnily enough blinded by their privilege.

[Apparition of Jack]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Survival runs the show, not high ideals.

These things aren't mutually exclusive though, it's often through a desire to manifest ideals into the world that people are motivated to survive / struggle / work hard enough to get through the hardships of devilry, social ills, corruption, etc. If all you give people is cold, logical ways to maximise individual survival at the expense of some higher truth to strive towards, people will abandon you when hardships inevitably arise.

This is a huge part of why technocratic neoliberalism is proving so ineffectual at staving off fascism / radical communism etc. This worldview has no ideals beyond "let's use technology to make as much money as possible." And to be fair, technology has progressed rapidly over the last 30 years or so, so credit due where credit is due, but eventually people will get sick of just being marketed new ways to solve problematic minutia without being given any sense of higher truths to strive towards, both collectively and individually.

Giving people an optimistic glimpse of what could be possible, whether that's through art, discussion, prefigurative politics, debate, etc. grants people a sense of "grounding" and provides them with hope that a civilisational downswing is only temporary and that brighter days will still lay ahead. Otherwise people will turn to corruption and devilry when they feel their world closing in too much and start lashing out, which obviously negatively affects everyone's survival.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Apparition of Jack