Is there a way out of suffering?

[0bserver]

4 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@0bserver

See through that one is alive & experiencing, and that there is past & future. Understand, or recognize rather, what memory is. All definitions are relative appearance, only direct experience will do for what you’re asking. 

Sorry but this is not helpful at all, if anything it makes me even more confused. What you're saying might make sense to you but for me your writing is very unclear. You're probably talking about some specific state of a direct experience, like under psychedelics or in deep meditation. I've had ego-death before on psychedelics and I understand (experientially) what it's like to be in a state of no-self, without dichotomising, just being pure awareness. But nothing in that experience indicated at reincarnation, there weren't even any thoughts, there was no conception of reincarnation that could have even entered my mind during that experience. I could have only rationalised that the experience had something to do with reincarnation after coming out of that state, I would call that self-delusion, because I would have interpreted my experience against an idea that I had read or learned from somewhere, this thought wouldn't even enter the mind without prior exposure. So the idea that direct experience can say something about reincarnation makes no sense to me. When you're telling me to look for validity of reincarnation through direct experience, you're already setting me up for a certain kind of interpretation of this experience. 

[Nahm]

@0bserver

Ok. No worries. All I can do is point. 

[PopoyeSailor]

6 hours ago, 0bserver said:

I've had ego-death before on psychedelics and I understand (experientially) what it's like to be in a state of no-self, without dichotomising, just being pure awareness. But nothing in that experience indicated at reincarnation, there weren't even any thoughts, there was no conception of reincarnation that could have even entered my mind during that experience.

You seem to be assuming that after death, one enters into the state into which you are describing. But, that's not the case.

You were in some form of enlightened state. In enlightened state reincarnation doesn't occur, because the Annamaya Kosha(Physical Body), Pranamaya Kosha(Energetic Subtle Body) Manomaya Kosha(Mind with its Memories, thoughts and its modifications) Vignyana maya kosha(Causal body - Pure individuated conciousness without any further modifications) cease to be. In such a state, no reincarnation, no mental modifications and no heavenly or hellish realms are experienced. Simply comciousness realising its brahman state and remaining as brahman-the pure conciousness. 

Until enlightenment is permanently achieved, reincarnations as well as mental realms in-between such incarnations keep happening.

Here is the proof:

 

 

 

[gswva]

@PopoyeSailor How can you be sure of what happens after being in a oneness state? And not another cycles of God splitting itself over and over again? If it's just to get infinite orgasm with yourself forever, it's as meaningless and boring as many ultimately neutral experiences of life.

Edited August 17, 2020 by gswva

[0bserver]

3 hours ago, PopoyeSailor said:

You seem to be assuming that after death, one enters into the state into which you are describing. But, that's not the case.

@Nahm  @PopoyeSailor

I'm not saying that's the state you will enter after death. I'm saying that after death, your subjective, immediate being in the world, constituted of phenomenal experiences, qualia, cognition, perception, memory, and so on will cease to exist. So if it were the case that there is reincarnation, the structures which contain all this information about the previously lived experience don't come along, so there is no way to tell that you have reincarnated. So it's a story that people tell themselves, something they'd like to be true, but when you look at it more deeply, it's just as delusional as anything else that we humans have come up with in our minds.

Why is it that two people who have identical mystical experience, yet after the experience one interprets it as if it has something to do with reincarnation, and for the other person it doesn't even occur to link this experience with reincarnation. The difference is that the former has been exposed to the eastern philosophy and concepts of reincarnation, and the latter has experienced it through the western framework. 

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, 0bserver said:

I'm saying that after death

First you’d need to see what that’s all about.

[0bserver]

2 hours ago, Nahm said:

First you’d need to see what that’s all about.

?

[Nahm]

@0bserver

If you haven’t transcended death yet reincarnation won’t make sense. Self can’t think of itself, in an actuality sense, so it’s idea of it self is subject to the idea of death. These selves & death must be recognized as ideas, a recognition-less recognition which occurs upon the ‘experience’ of the actuality. ‘Experience’ infinity, rather than the thoughts about it. Nondual is never ‘solved’ via duality. The movie Wizard Of Oz exemplifies this nicely. Also, different yet same approach, go straight into desire, express it completely in your life. Spend more time visualizing, dreaming, fantasizing, meditating & actualizing vs thinking. In regard to the op, these are transcending suffering, and also reveal the ‘stuckness’ of finite (thinking).

[Loving Radiance]

@0bserver Scrutinize these dualities in your direct experience. Really look. With & without eyes.

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See through that one is alive & experiencing, and that there is past & future. Understand, or recognize rather, what memory is.

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Self can’t think of itself, in an actuality sense, so it’s idea of it self is subject to the idea of death. These selves & death must be recognized as ideas, a recognition-less recognition which occurs upon the ‘experience’ of the actuality.

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‘Experience’ infinity, rather than the thoughts about it. Nondual is never ‘solved’ via duality.

Scrutinize:

• Death/Alive
• Experiencing/Not-Experiencing
• Being/Not-being
• Past/Future

 

From scrutinizing and "experiencing infinity", now leading to desire:

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The movie Wizard Of Oz exemplifies this nicely.

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go straight into desire, express it completely in your life. Spend more time visualizing, dreaming, fantasizing, meditating & actualizing vs thinking. In regard to the op, these are transcending suffering, and also reveal the ‘stuckness’ of finite (thinking).

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by Loving Radiance

[PopoyeSailor]

On 8/17/2020 at 1:47 PM, gswva said:

@PopoyeSailor How can you be sure of what happens after being in a oneness state? And not another cycles of God splitting itself over and over again? If it's just to get infinite orgasm with yourself forever, it's as meaningless and boring as many ultimately neutral experiences of life.

Note: I'm not enlightened. My knowledge is scriptural, and as such is only intellectual. 

Dear @gswva 

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How can you be sure of what happens after being in a oneness state? 

Because of law of karma(Tendencies, conditioning, behavioural patterns, Influences from others & society, etc..) -

Once every bit of karma is burnt off including prarabhdha and there is no individuation any more, that'll be the end of that individual. 

Karma is that fuel which keeps individuation going on. 

Karma is generated through identification with the body / mind. Any form of identification which is of the nature of ego with the sense of doer-ship creates karma.

As long as there is a karmic(cause & effect) chain binding you to some reality, your individuality is safe. Because, even if you get enlightened, the Prarabhdha Karma - 'The fructified karma which determines the experiences of current life' will not get dissolved until the current body dies. Because if it did, the body along with individuation would die the very moment enlightenment happens due of lack of any binding mechanism(karma) to bind it to duality.

As to how the initial karma gets generated, there are varying opinions. I have some speculation on it. But, because of lack of direct experience, not so sure about it my self. Also, not sure even if enlightenment might make you understand it. Perhaps samyama on karma might help understand it.

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And not another cycles of God splitting itself over and over again? 

Brahman doesn't split into anything. The apparent world is just a projection with-in Brahman - like water seen in a mirage.

Even when the projection is happening, there is no change in Brahman(Just like a mirror, even though showing the entire world with-in itself, doesn't change its own state). 

These projections will keep happening with infinite realities with infinite Jiva(s)(living entities) emerging out and dissolving continuously. But, any PARTICULAR ENTITY with its own 'ego and experiences' having once merged into Brahman will never come back again. 

"But, I am of the opinion that even after such merging, if prompted by some agency in duality, which has knowledge of said individual, that individual or even a whole reality of a universe can be brought back". 

There is no self in Brahman. Brahman DOESN'T 'WILL' or 'WISH' to create anything(Willing and wishing are only for the creatures with a 'mind and ego' with-in duality. Brahman is beyond such concepts and is beyond Duality).

Just like wetness and fluidity are intrinsic to water; Similarly, the nature of reflecting 'mirage like projections' of realities with-in itself is intrinsic to Brahman. 

Such projections are what we refer to as 'Creation / Universe'. Brahman has infinite of such Creations / Universes with-in itself.

Each of such universes exist within the mind of an individuated atomic-particle(Jiva - PRIMARY CREATION) of Brahman as an imagination/dream-like-projection with-in that Jiva(living entity) - whom we call as god or creator of that universe. These jivas are like mirages without any separate existence apart from Brahman. Cosmic universes(SECONDARY CREATION) experienced with-in Jivas are like water seen in that mirage. (Mirage and Water-seen-in-it are both in truth Non-Existent).

(Scriptural Description along with my *own opinion* to clarify the Scriptural Description): With-in each such universe/reality, infinite other universes/realities are created by the jivas who have died in it *and are creating them through mental projection in their after life states / In states of deep meditation, either conciously or unconciously(Just like we do in our dreams). Some of those projections may intermingle with one another and function as one single universe/reality, with many such intermingled universes/realities in existence. While some completely isolated from others as separate universes/realities. Having once come into existence, being supported by Brahman; these universes/realities continue to exist even after the destruction of its parent universe i.e change in state of that jiva or liberation of that jiva who is projecting the parent universe with-in the higher order reality. *  

With-in each of them, infinite other universes/realities exists. This cycle goes on ad-infinitum with-in them. We are living in one such reality/universe, whose nature is that which we experience in it. That's why reality as a whole is NOT JUST INFINITE IN SINGLE DIMENSION. BUT, INFINITE IN INFINITE DIMENSIONS. If you are to write it is as a mathematical equation, you can write its as Infinity(Infinity(Infinity(Infi.....))))))...  infinitely.

 

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If it's just to get infinite orgasm with yourself forever, it's as meaningless and boring as many ultimately neutral experiences of life.

Not all experiences are neutral, There are literally infinity of experiences that can be had, ranging from suffering, to neutral, to unimaginably exotic realities, full of joy and happiness, stimulating all kinds of emotions and blissfulness with infinite variety to infinite degree. Because, Brahman is not limited by anything as it is the very source of everything.

The human body/mind cannot grasp all of these realities from its current state, for it may not even have the faculties necessary to experience such states. 

No experience is permanently the same. Even with-in same reality experiences keep changing. 

"Just as karma, such is experience".

Infact, some devotional schools of Bhakthi path doesn't even like Non-Dual liberation, and it is considered by them as a permanent suicide.

The devotees after attaining a liberation of a dual type, experience going to imaginary heavenly abodes(one of the universes/realities mentioned above) of their imaginary gods(which are experienced as real - Just like this imaginary reality by us) and enjoy heavenly delights with no trace of any suffering, which is far more exotic and enjoyable than any earthly existence. For this reason, not everyone wishes to dissolve their individuation. 

So, Non-Duality is not the only game in town.

May be after Non-Dual enlightenment, one need to learning how to develop purified ego once again to furthur generate more sattva karma to keep the individuation intact.

Even Ramana Maharishi who taught Non-Duality worshipped Arunachaleshwara. Ramakrishna Paramahamsa who taught non-duality to Swami Vivekananda worshipped Kaali. But, what type of liberation they attained I do not know.

My Opinion: 

To maximise life's potential and blissfulness and swim constantly in variety "Non-Duality is to be Realised and Individuation is to be Maintained".

Edited August 20, 2020 by PopoyeSailor

[PopoyeSailor]

On 8/17/2020 at 3:22 PM, 0bserver said:

@Nahm  @PopoyeSailor

I'm not saying that's the state you will enter after death. I'm saying that after death, your subjective, immediate being in the world, constituted of phenomenal experiences, qualia, cognition, perception, memory, and so on will cease to exist. So if it were the case that there is reincarnation, the structures which contain all this information about the previously lived experience don't come along, so there is no way to tell that you have reincarnated. So it's a story that people tell themselves, something they'd like to be true, but when you look at it more deeply, it's just as delusional as anything else that we humans have come up with in our minds.

Why is it that two people who have identical mystical experience, yet after the experience one interprets it as if it has something to do with reincarnation, and for the other person it doesn't even occur to link this experience with reincarnation. The difference is that the former has been exposed to the eastern philosophy and concepts of reincarnation, and the latter has experienced it through the western framework. 

Dear @0bserver, 

Note: My knowledge is only Intellectual.

Yes, ultimately everything is just an imagination like a water in the mirage. You are right on that point.

But, it seems that you think that reincarnation as an experience with-in this imaginary reality does not happen at all. May be you haven't watched the videos I posted. Please do watch them.

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subjective, immediate being in the world, constituted of phenomenal experiences, qualia, cognition, perception, memory, and so on will cease to exist

They don't cease to exist. People do remember some details sometimes. Some yogis do remember many or all of their past lives. But, to intentionally remember all of such lives with all the details require deep meditational practices with the same intention. 

After death, only the Annamaya Kosha(physical body made from food) dies, The other subtle coverings like Pranamaya Kosha(Energetic), Manomaya  Kosha(Mental), Vignyanamaya Kosha(Intellect), Anandamaya Kosha(Causal body whose nature is love and bliss) continue to exist even after death. Together all these 5 kosha(s)(Sheaths/Coverings) are collectively called as Pancha Koshas. Pancha means 5. They dissolve only after non-dual realisation, that too only after physical death of the body.

In Bhagavad Gita, Arjuna has the same dilemma and asks Krishna:

Arjuna: If one follow the path of spirituality and follow all good deeds, but die before attaining Moksha(liberation/enlightenment) what would become of that person's fate? wouldn't they lose everything and have to start again from the scratch in their future life? 

Krishna: Such saintly person will go to heavenly abodes of gods based on their worship of such gods, and having exhausted their good karma there(positive karmic tendencies - along with the desire, knowledge and belief of such abodes) in such abodes, will come back and take rebirth again here on earth(Having been forced by the karma that is based off of earthly experiences. - Also, doesn't mean always has to come back to earth) either in an aristocratic family or in a saintly home. Will again continue the same work from where they left off previously(the knowledge that was learned previously also has to be relearned. But, this time that portion of knowledge comes naturally and learned very easily without any hiccups. Rarely, some people may remember(Some of it or all of it) naturally without having to relearn everything) Nothing that has been gained spiritually is ever truly lost(Memory of it may not be readily accessible, but as a development in the psyche as a properly aligned goal with the absolute truth, always remains permanent). 

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Why is it that two people who have identical mystical experience, yet after the experience one interprets it as if it has something to do with reincarnation, and for the other person it doesn't even occur to link this experience with reincarnation. The difference is that the former has been exposed to the eastern philosophy and concepts of reincarnation, and the latter has experienced it through the western framework.

Mystical awakenings some times give you experiences that are tailor made to the person having them, due to social and cultural conditioning. But, at other times might cause realizations regarding fundamental truths which are true and real for any person of any social or cultural backgrounds.

Reincarnation is one such fundamental truth which some times is experienced as a mystical experience even during deep meditation. But, because of knowledge of such truth not being taught in the said culture, one may try to explain it and treat in a way that makes sense in that particular culture / society(Some times in such cultures, such experiences may be wrongly treated as a case of possession, or a medical condition or other such and it'll curtail the spiritual growth of that individual, even causing unnecessary mental problems in his//her life).

But, those societies / cultures which have long known about such truths and having studied them for thousands of years, can recognize it right away for what it really is and treat it appropriately.

Just take a look at reincarnation research that's been happening for quite a few years now. It shows proof of reincarnation in almost all the major cultures, irrespective of their beliefs.

I believe, the truth of reincarnation must have been known to almost every culture at one point, it only got lost recently in some cultures because of invasions, take over, propaganda and other such factors.

May be reincarnation is a factor in this reality we are in. May be there are other realities which doesn't have reincarnation. That also seems plausible. 'What is and isn't possible within an imagination'?

Edited August 20, 2020 by PopoyeSailor

[0bserver]

On 20/08/2020 at 9:02 AM, PopoyeSailor said:

Just take a look at reincarnation research that's been happening for quite a few years now. It shows proof of reincarnation in almost all the major cultures, irrespective of their beliefs.

Care to share some credible sources on the reincarnation research? Because I can't find any. 

How can research prove reincarnation? Haven't we evolved to believe in superficial things like higher power and free will and so on. Isn't this just a common pattern of delusions in a range of human populations. A mechanism to reduce suffering from the fear of death. 

[PopoyeSailor]

On 8/22/2020 at 5:04 PM, 0bserver said:

How can research prove reincarnation? Haven't we evolved to believe in superficial things like higher power and free will and so on. Isn't this just a common pattern of delusions in a range of human populations. A mechanism to reduce suffering from the fear of death. 

From the absolute truth perspective nothing truly exists. But, in the 'apparent' world there is no restriction as to what experiences should exist or not-exist. Please read a post above my previous post.

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Care to share some credible sources on the reincarnation research? Because I can't find any.

50 Years of research: 

https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/our-research/children-who-report-memories-of-previous-lives/fifty-years-of-research/

You can find links for academic publications on this page below:

https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/publications/

Jame Leininger's Case Report from Official NIH government website:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27079216/ 

Full PDF of Paper above:https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/wp-content/uploads/sites/360/2017/04/REI42-Tucker-James-LeiningerPIIS1550830716000331.pdf

You cannot expect a whole culture with a certain mindset to give up their beliefs they had for a long time and accept a radically different world view just like that. For this very reason you cannot find that many researches on this subject matter.

There will always be resistance to even 'researches' which challenge the fundamental beliefs people(Scientific/Religious) hold dear. 

Since scientific world does not entertain such concepts, even researchers and scientists who even though in their personal life may belief in such things, are generally afraid to involve in such researches, because of the fear of being ridiculed by their fellow researchers as well as a scientific community as a whole, which affects their career prospects adversely. 

 

Have you watched the videos I posted or not? Please answer. If not, please take a look at this.

Most famous American Reincarnation story of James Leininger:

 

Even truth can be proven false(from argumentative perspective) if you argue it hard enough. Keeping an open mind helps

On the other side of this coin: There are dubious people claiming they are the famous people in their past life.

Edited August 23, 2020 by PopoyeSailor

[PopoyeSailor]

On 8/22/2020 at 5:04 PM, 0bserver said:

How can research prove reincarnation?

From looking at previous replies to your post by others and your reply once again. From what I understand, you seem to be thinking about reincarnation as some sort of an experience that can be recreated in an experimental way. No, It cannot be "created" in a laboratory. Although deep meditation practices and even hypnosis is used to bring back past life memories and is used especially in curing phobias from birth.

The research in reincarnation simply means: Finding the people who remember their past lives and recording their statements about their past lives and verifying those claims by literally searching for the evidence of those claims in the place they used to be in their past life. If an overwhelming evidence is obtained for those claims, then that case is considered as a genuine case for reincarnation.

In some cases the injuries associated with the past life which led to the death in the previous life leaves some sort of physical marks on the person in the present life.

[PopoyeSailor]

On 8/13/2020 at 4:37 PM, peachboy said:

 

When I was young and learning the piano, I remember playing a C-Major triad and thinking it was the best thing ever. Even though my fingers could barely span that far to play the required three notes, the resultant auditory heaven was well worth it.

These days I tend to play late 1960s post-bebop avant-garde jazz shit, where pretty much every chord is an exposition of dissonance (with seldom resolutions back into harmony).  The idea of simply just listening to the harmony of a C-Major triad has long since become utterly boring, and the only way of getting a kick is to find as much dissonant noise as possible, so when it does finally resolve, it's worth the wait.

 

 

Yes, exactly my point, sorry for the late reply.

[Frenk]

@Someone here hi, i am curious how would you answer your question now after your breakthrough?

[Beginner Mind]

On 8/11/2020 at 3:15 AM, Someone here said:

There is a lot of suffering that one can experience in this life. Some people are lucky they experience less suffering and some people are just fated to be in the middle of some extreme shit like starving kids in Africa etc.   Suffering exists so let's not waste time arguing about whether it exists or not.. My question is there a salvation? A permanent end to all forms of suffering?  If so what it is?  Because I don't think there is such a way except permanent annihilation. 

Please make your response non - classical and nuanced because it's so easy to deconstruct woo woo unrealistic answers. Thanks

The simplest way to relieve yourself of suffering is to be aware of being aware.  Simply relax the focus of your attention, notice that you are aware, and rest in that experience.  After a period of time, peace and contentment will flood the body, and suffering will dissolve.

[Someone here]

8 hours ago, Frenk said:

@Someone here hi, i am curious how would you answer your question now after your breakthrough?

There is no way out of suffering for the ego.  As long as you believe that you are a self that needs to survive in the world there will be suffering. Because you need to protect yourself as an ego. that is (separation) what suffering is. Because you have needs to be fulfilled.. If you don't fulfill them  you will suffer. You have attachments.. Likes and dislikes... And things won't always go your way. There will be suffering. Etc. 

 The only way to end suffering is to be clear about who you are existentially. 

[Moksha]

11 hours ago, Someone here said:

There is no way out of suffering for the ego.  As long as you believe that you are a self that needs to survive in the world there will be suffering. Because you need to protect yourself as an ego. that is (separation) what suffering is. Because you have needs to be fulfilled.. If you don't fulfill them  you will suffer. You have attachments.. Likes and dislikes... And things won't always go your way. There will be suffering. Etc. 

 The only way to end suffering is to be clear about who you are existentially. 

I agree with you. I would only add that freedom from suffering is not only a realization; it is the regular practice of staying present, noticlng our attachments and aversions, and dissolving them with the light of consciousness. There are exceptions, but for most of us this practice takes years, perhaps even a lifetime. How do you know if you are making progress? You suffer less and love more.

[Someone here]

43 minutes ago, Moksha said:

; it is the regular practice of staying present,

Can you not be present?