Is there a way out of suffering?

[Nahm]

42 minutes ago, 0bserver said:

If it is not possible to understand or directly experience this phenomenon, then why even make up that concept? First of all, what is your definition of non-duality. Because the way I understand it is

There’s no one to understand or define nonduality. That’d be two. Nonduality is a pointing, not a concept. The word doesn’t suggest what it is, only what it is not. If it is a concept, follow the pointing until it isn’t. Stop looking at the finger and see the moon, sts. 

43 minutes ago, 0bserver said:

The idea of evolution can be observed and confirmed with 100%  consistency anywhere you look.

An idea can not be perceived any more than perception can be thought. You can mistake reality for your ideas everywhere you look, yes. You don’t have to though. 

46 minutes ago, 0bserver said:

one of the fundamental processes that takes place in the universe.

The universe is an appearance. There are no process, there is an idea that there are processes. It’d all be as it is, without the idea or label. 

47 minutes ago, 0bserver said:

What's wrong with the idea of the universe becoming aware of its own processes through human forms? Are we not "directly" observing the process of evolution whenever we look for it?

Ideas aren’t wrong or right, that in and of itself is an idea. The universe has no processes. There are no humans. 

Start from what is actual, now. Notice evolution is a back story, not anything which can be pointed to. The actuality of anything pointed to, is now. That there is a past comes in as an idea, about now. 

50 minutes ago, 0bserver said:

Are we not "directly" observing the process of evolution whenever we look for it?

There are not-two. We observing some thing, any thing, is twoness. All twoness is apparent. This is why moms & dads are called a-parent. You created yourself, and not even. 

52 minutes ago, 0bserver said:

Again whats the point of making up this concept and probing it or even having a channel on this forum dedicated for enlightenment topics, if every single idea is just a delusion and only thing that matters is direct experience, why not just have one big page that responds to every question or idea with "its just a thought"

Nonduality is not a concept. Your insistence that it is, is the point. 

53 minutes ago, 0bserver said:

How is it possible to directly experience reincarnation, have you directly experienced reincarnation? Seems like self-delusion. It's a story that you have adopted from reading eastern philosophy. There is no way to verify the claim of re-birth

Yes & yes there is. When all beliefs are seen through and as such disappear, only truth remains, and not even. 

55 minutes ago, 0bserver said:

So is the universe completely limited in understanding itself in absolutely every way? Is it not the fact of existence that the universe is right now experiencing itself through me. How can you say there is nothing to get around when I (universe) in fact am trying to get around something

Universe is a thought. A universe has never existed or been witness or observed.  “Understanding itself”, is twoness. What is, simply is, itself. There is not that ‘me’ or that ‘universe experiencing through it’, not-two. 

Like this...there is nothing to get around. 

 

 

 

[arlin]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Even death won't really save you because you'll just reincarnate, and probably in worse shape than you are today.

 

Well cmon leo, don't be pessimistic. I might incarnate in an alien in an alian sociaty who lives in more unconditional love. 

By the way, if by your belief im god, i also can choose to incarnate in whatever i want. Right?

 

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

And we haven't even considered animals. If you reincarnate as a random animal, most animals have it pretty hard. Chances you are you will reincarnate as a chicken in a factory farm or a bug that goes SPLAT on a car window shield.

If you incarnate in an animal. you would not be self conscious of your suffering. right?

[FlowerNote]

@Leo Gura But if I am God, whats stopping me from at least resting for a couple hundred years before reincarnating? Why does God have a bias towards reincarnation in the first place?

And why cant God reincarnate as an angel without suffering, who orbits very close to the godhead? That would also happen in Infinity right.

[Javfly33]

43 minutes ago, arlin said:

Well cmon leo, don't be pessimistic. I might incarnate in an alien in an alian sociaty who lives in more unconditional love. 

By the way, if by your belief im god, i also can choose to incarnate in whatever i want. Right?

 

If you incarnate in an animal. you would not be self conscious of your suffering. right?

Let's not even talk about that some months ago he said reincarnation and last lives were imaginary... Now they actually happen? Cmon

[Kshantivadin]

@Nahm

Okay, cutting through the beliefs, thoughts and concept - there is still hurt within the appearances. Something deeply aching. The appearances hurt. To dismiss that with non-duality beliefs which aren't viscerally understood/felt would be a cop-out.

there is sadness, there is pain, here in the relative plain.

I can go and say "You're putting labels on your experiences, there's actually nothing wrong with it" and... I would be right? Why do I believe that there is pain and sadness then? Something's not right.

How am I something that's actually nothing, why am I not something else. Oh fuck, that's a duality.

How the fuck am I so deluded that I can get stuck in thoughts, veiling my experience so much, that I believe that a mirage contains a self, and that the self is suffering? what the actual fuck?

I feel grief. that might not be suffering, but I feel it!

 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Kshantivadin

[arlin]

@Javfly33 where did he say that? is it in a video?

[Kshantivadin]

@arlin

no , here in this thread

[seriousman24]

The experience and of pain/suffering can be retroactively justified (after we are out if it) as teaching us that's it's okay to hate/dislike/separate yourself from something, that's it's fine and good to run away from something you don't like, that it's okay to have dislikes, and specially that there is a part of reality where something can only be disliked, even if you think you've "evolved" when you started enjoying your healthy vegetables as an adult that type of evolution might just lead you to thinking hurting yourself in a way that makes you personally and unequivocally feel bad is somehow good, this being perpetuated by almost any and all communities of every stage with the concepts of self sacrifice, endurance, selflessness, non ego, ego,etc.

Pain is bad because it's bad; pleasure is good because it's good when you reduce it to it's purest fundamentals; it's like a basic unit of language when stripped out of external details/entanglement, a recursive/redundant/tautology, I personally got stuck on trying to find something more fundamental but at some point I had to stop because I had to hold all this pain/pleasure memories inside of me; maybe it's because time/mind exists which means boundaries; in the end language,identity,specificity seems to exist regardless and by definition of something rather than nothing it needs an "address" or ego or coordinate so having a specifically defined boundary is what reflects/ricochets the mutual interdependent existence of "others"; language/etc; in this case pain being a specific neuronal language if you want to use this identifier as such (any identifier/word works as long as the relative pattern of meaning between words serves it's function); people aren't feeling experiences directly they're only looking at it like a pretend god so they can have fun bouncing concepts at one another as a social game (just an observation since I enjoy doing it).

Anyway sorry for this unedited mess I know I'll mess myself up instead if I try to fix it for others; what I meant is that you can look at baser feelings of pure pain/pleasure as just that directly as if it's the simplest personal language, the confusion is when it's mixed you might not know what to do or not do, again personally I used to be all about full acceptance/love and I know it can work like that in the ultimate ideal(exchanging what would normally be  an experience of pain for pleasure like getting run over) but ironically enough it seems as if I wasn't accepting time as real/useful or linear thinking/order as useful I was trying to bypass something and that something was actually just denial/hate/dislike/etc, you can pleasurably hold hate/dislike just as any tool that you are allowed to use, I mean that's self love right, you don't hold it so that it goes away you hold it so that you can actually hate/dislike something; it's just that the pattern of hate/dislike can need precision or it can spill over yourself and you get hurt;

I completely bamboozled myself with all these concepts of pure love/non duality/no thinking/pure feeling/law of attraction and while for the most part I loved and understood others hate/dislike I didn't really because I couldn't accept my own hate because I couldn't control it, now that I've become capable of intentionally disliking something I have more control and hence less fear/pain; in other words because I do hate things I feel more love; it doesn't just exist as a bench or something low just so that something higher like love can exist or just as a part it can be it's own thing too that's what love really means; my hate doesn't hurt me or anyone for the most part; it's part of a boundary that I think specifically creates the experience of "others" rather than some stupid contrast bullshit; it's not that you can only communicate what you like by telling others what you don't, it is specifically and directly the fact that hate/fear/rage/shame/guilt and whatever are directly amazing; the reason they might not look like it for most people is because the simpler the boundary or internal unit of language the more it will get mixed and you will lose your boundary that allows you to exist at the same time as others if you actually lost yourself to some kind of mad reclusive personal indulgence or external creation of these feeling in others like you can observe in psychopathic type individuals; essentially hate/fear/rage/shame/guilt/etc can be conceptually bad but should also be directly pleasurable so that your actually internal understanding of it can actually function optimally at a neurological level if you want to put it that way; if you are only capable of distancing yourself from bad things you will come to infinite pain sooner or late and if the only thing you are capable of is directly turning it into pleasure you either directly die into personal love where "others' and boundaries would disappear or again you would turn into a psychopath.

Why do you think that you feel fear when supposedly surrendering it's because there is definitely something that is nothing else but 100% bad in it; it's because people's intelligence is detached from their energy that they attack themselves; we hurt ourselves in the name of the systems we built because the point of this particular existence is actually ego, the finite, others; the state of full love as a human is intimately tied to our social survival but doesn't mean that it's bad or good, simply that it is a boundary; it's not just humans that have ego, ego just means definition.Imagine if we didn't come already prepacked with the patterns of a human; how would we reach the same level with just pleasure/pain as signals in an empty universe without even time.

Anyway sorry again for my lengthy pure regurgitation type posts but that was quite the load off myself somehow thank you all for triggering me lol just feel the vibe out or something don't hurt yourself with my bullshit if it's too much.

[John Doe]

@Someone here I have tried to contemplate this question for a long time, so let us examine this objectively. Is there a way out of suffering? There must be. Just dose on MDMA and Ketamine, simple. If we can find a way to flood the brain with Serotonin, and limit neurotransmitter response to prevent physical pain, then that's it. We have inhibited any possibility of (1) physical pain and (2) mental suffering. No problems now, whatsoever the external situation, we will always be happy. "Drug-induced euphoria", so to speak. The only an issue left is to make this state permanent and without drugs. In any case, we know that it is indeed possible. But I'm left with a weird feeling in the pit of my stomach that there's a piece to the puzzle that I'm missing here. This brings to light the idea of 'surrendering', as mentioned by Leo and many other masters. I'm looking at it closely for now, but I'm not able to make sense of it, it's... so convoluted, so counter-intuitive, so crazy. I will report further findings as I encounter them. 

[danton]

@Someone here What is suffering?

Sufferiing is a gap beetween the past and the present. Isn't it?

[danton]

So what is the problem then? The past of the present or the gap beetween them?

 

[danton]

Thinking is the problem. You suffer because you think

[mandyjw]

Study and read about hedonic adaptation. Watch it play out in yourself. I've done migrant labor type work, and you get so sore and exhausted out in the fields all day, about day three you're muscles are about giving out and you're MISERABLE. You hit a low and then you come out of it. Nothing teaches this so well as hard physical labor in my opinion. Taking a shower and having a meal after a hard day of work is one of the most pleasurable things you'll ever experience. You don't have to even try to let go of the thoughts because the exhaustion does it for you. Start running long distances, the same thing happens. 

Suffering requires a point of reference. You are that point of reference. It's not real, it's whatever you decide it to be. 

[Someone here]

@Nahm

Suffering has nothing to do with ego or identity or thoughts. Suffering (pain precisely) is a feeling not a thought.  And I know you will say "no it's a thought".. Yes because as I told you before.. Feelings are thoughts and thoughts are feelings. 

16 hours ago, Merkabah said:

 

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by Someone here

[Someone here]

14 hours ago, allislove said:

If there is no one there is no suffering. 

Not true.   Because there is already no one here to suffer but still there is suffering. 

[Someone here]

12 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

So don't try to be smart here. You suffer because you are indetified with an individual entity which it's false. If you would stop believing yourself to be the body and the guy who opens the mouth, you would see that when *he complains *he is not suffering, there are just words coming out of *his mouth.

I swear by all the gods in the world.. There is no one identified or misidentified with anything.  

[Someone here]

11 hours ago, Mu_ said:

what really is suffering subjectively and objectively

Painful sensations in the body.. Isn't that obvious? 

 

11 hours ago, Mu_ said:

does it need to go away subjectively and objectively",

I'm not sure what do you mean by "does it need".  I know I want it to end and I assume everyone else want that as well. 

 

11 hours ago, Mu_ said:

what doesn't want it there, you?, others?, animals?, aliens?, spirits?"

Yes me.  And I assume all other sentient creatures don't like it as well. 

 

11 hours ago, Mu_ said:

"is the existence of the thing you call suffering make life a problem or God into some twisted creature for having created it and if so, is this just your opinion or objectively true".  "

Not necessarily. It just makes the world a shitty place depending on how much suffering you experience regularly. 

 

11 hours ago, Mu_ said:

and if so, why not try and see what happens for a period of time if you did drop this notion"

 nothing happens.  If I stop caring about suffering I'm gonna still experience it! 

[Someone here]

3 hours ago, John Doe said:

@Someone here I have tried to contemplate this question for a long time, so let us examine this objectively. Is there a way out of suffering? There must be. Just dose on MDMA and Ketamine, simple. If we can find a way to flood the brain with Serotonin, and limit neurotransmitter response to prevent physical pain, then that's it. We have inhibited any possibility of (1) physical pain and (2) mental suffering. No problems now, whatsoever the external situation, we will always be happy. "Drug-induced euphoria", so to speak. The only an issue left is to make this state permanent and without drugs. In any case, we know that it is indeed possible. But I'm left with a weird feeling in the pit of my stomach that there's a piece to the puzzle that I'm missing here. This brings to light the idea of 'surrendering', as mentioned by Leo and many other masters. I'm looking at it closely for now, but I'm not able to make sense of it, it's... so convoluted, so counter-intuitive, so crazy. I will report further findings as I encounter them. 

This is far away from being actualized in our lifetime. 

[Someone here]

2 hours ago, mandyjw said:

Suffering requires a point of reference. You are that point of reference. It's not real, it's whatever you decide it to be. 

Go touch a fire flame with your hands and just "decide" that that's not painful.. And see how that goes..... 

[Mu_]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

Painful sensations in the body.. Isn't that obvious? 

 

I'm not sure what do you mean by "does it need".  I know I want it to end and I assume everyone else want that as well. 

 

Yes me.  And I assume all other sentient creatures don't like it as well. 

 

Not necessarily. It just makes the world a shitty place depending on how much suffering you experience regularly. 

 

 nothing happens.  If I stop caring about suffering I'm gonna still experience it! 

And so what if you still experience suffering?  You care to much about suffering, thats your issue. 

Not all beings are concerned about suffering as much as you are, imagine not caring or focusing or wondering why uncomfortable sensation is happening.

You ever take a ice bath and its so intolerable until the moment you can just let it be so damn cold, and in this its suddenly not as cold.  Similarly one can just let uncomfortable be so, and in so, its not so, lol.

What I and others is pointing to is not easy, trust me, it took me a good few years of coming back to this topic of suffering before I was ok with it to a small degree, and slowly as I just let pain be pain, emotion I don't like, be emotion I dont like (eventually turning into just emotion, then eventually something kinda funny, then in a way kinda ok and oddly pleasurable).

But you gotta be open, you gotta be interested and you may have to let go of some of your convictions that you think you already know about this stuff.

You say suffering makes the world a shitty place, you ever met someone who's in pain in a regular basis or in a wheelchair or the guy who had his face shot off and yet their attitude towards life is one of thankfulness, kindness, and appreciation?  Whats the difference in your situation and theirs?  I found lots of good truth in pondering this question that helped me stop being a victim of suffering.