Is there a way out of suffering?

[Leo Gura]

@Merkabah I'm sorry to be the first to inform you that humans also commit incest and child molestation.

Most Hollywood actors date women young enough to be their daughters.

And most royal families throughout history intermarried.

[Nahm]

@Someone here

Examine more closely with more scrutiny who is interested in a way out of suffering, and precisely why. List the reasons on a per in front of you, so to speak, rather than ‘in the head’ / thinking. Electrobeam was rather spot on and all that he shared with you was rather blown off. One thing missed that might be ‘graspable’ sooner than later, is that the intellect which has been apparently utilized to arrive at what has previously been referred to as “Truth”, is “itself” only an appearance. That one has arrived at a realization via negation is a facade. Look enough, and there is nothing ‘there’. Any & every thought, concept, explanation, every notion, is only an appearance. What stands to be fully realized (by no one) is ‘you’ are what is appearing. You’re looking for a way out of what you are simultaneously creating. It won’t ‘work’. Thoughts about this won’t do, because they are nonexistent, only apparent. Get in touch with feeling, more than you ever have, more than you’ve ever even considered...and feeling sorts all the nonsense out ‘for you’. It always has and always will. Listen, rather than talking, labeling, etc (feeling). Open your mind to the possibility that you’ve been believing you’ve felt, experienced feeling...but have actually never yet.

[Merkabah]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Merkabah I'm sorry to be the first to inform you that humans also commit incest and child molestation.

Most Hollywood actors date women young enough to be their daughters.

And most royal families throughout history intermarried.

point taken...

[allislove]

One person can have a close to ideal health, a lot of money, a good relationship, and STILL suffer. Another person can have way "worse" conditions and be happy. Suffering is all about relativity. By lessening relativity lessens the suffering. By lessening relativity, I mean letting go of identifications, clinging to what is not true, so accepting what is. If there is no one there is no suffering. 

Permanent end of suffering sounds too ideal to me. If you are happy 97% of the time would 3% of being "not in the mood" would bother you? I don't think so.

And yes, you can't run from Love. No way out, only in, deeper and deeper 

[Nahm]

@allislove Ha yes! No one escapes this love!

[Kshantivadin]

40 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Someone here

Examine more closely with more scrutiny who is interested in a way out of suffering, and precisely why. List the reasons on a per in front of you, so to speak, rather than ‘in the head’ / thinking. Electrobeam was rather spot on and all that he shared with you was rather blown off. One thing missed that might be ‘graspable’ sooner than later, is that the intellect which has been apparently utilized to arrive at what has previously been referred to as “Truth”, is “itself” only an appearance. That one has arrived at a realization via negation is a facade. Look enough, and there is nothing ‘there’. Any & every thought, concept, explanation, every notion, is only an appearance. What stands to be fully realized (by no one) is ‘you’ are what is appearing. You’re looking for a way out of what you are simultaneously creating. It won’t ‘work’. Thoughts about this won’t do, because they are nonexistent, only apparent. Get in touch with feeling, more than you ever have, more than you’ve ever even considered...and feeling sorts all the nonsense out ‘for you’. It always has and always will. Listen, rather than talking, labeling, etc (feeling). Open your mind to the possibility that you’ve been believing you’ve felt, experienced feeling...but have actually never yet.

There is some entity, but that entity is a part of the appearance as well. But there is definitely a mechanism within appearances, a pattern, a habit, which suffers. I can't pinpoint whom, because the appearances and the sense of self are intertwined. Maybe the feelings want out of suffering? And why - because it hurts, it doesn't feel good? Is it that simple?

The interest in a way out of suffering feels genuine. It doesn't feel ego driven, nor selfish. I don't pretend to know anything about reality anymore though, so I might be deluded here (I need to make a distinction between the ego and a self, when I say a sense of self I purely mean the separation between I-other).

I'm confused here. What is suffering even? I know that something hurts, big time. Whom does it hurt? Nobody, there is just hurt, can't it just hurt without there being "someone" to hurt? Can't there just be ignorance, if ignorance is the cause of suffering? Of course, in experience, I still get deluded and believe in a self, a lot of the time, most of the time.

Not enough suffering yet actually, I guess otherwise I definitely wouldn't keep riding in samsara like a chimp.

edit : I'm sorry for the amount of ignorance in this post. I'm just plain confused and deluded.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Kshantivadin
ignorance

[0bserver]

@Nahm @allislove @Leo Gura Any thoughts/feedback on the things I wrote on my latest post on this thread? I've been wrestling with the idea of suffering for a while and I feel like I'm not making much more progress on that issue, the evolutionary process of the universe towards a more desirable state makes more and more sense to me and it's hard for me to see it any other way. I disagree with the idea that everything that the universe experiences is desirable, but rather that it's a necessary byproduct of evolution, which we can eventually overcome as the universe converges towards greater and greater self-love. Does any of what I write make sense to you?

[Nahm]

49 minutes ago, Kshantivadin said:

There is some entity, but that entity is a part of the appearance as well.

There is not an entity. You are what is, appearing. 

49 minutes ago, Kshantivadin said:

 

But there is definitely a mechanism within appearances, a pattern, a habit, which suffers. I can't pinpoint whom, because the appearances and the sense of self are intertwined. Maybe the feelings want out of suffering? And why - because it hurts, it doesn't feel good? Is it that simple?

Yes. Feeling is more simple than can be thought. “Definitely a mechanism within appearance, a pattern, a habit” - that’s an appearance - you’re believing those thoughts. Stop saying it, and it stops seeming true. A mirage is a desert is an appearance. That means there is no actuality to it. A mirage is not wet. There are not patterns & habits - you are saying there are, and believing the what you’re saying. Sit with it, look at it. Choose a causation to inspect, any will do. Then contemplate what caused that, then what caused that, and so on, until it is realized causation is a mirage. You can’t find the beginning, or ‘original cause’, because it’s a mirage! It’s you, creating as you go. 

49 minutes ago, Kshantivadin said:

The interest in a way out of suffering feels genuine. It doesn't feel ego driven, nor selfish. I don't pretend to know anything about reality anymore though, so I might be deluded here (I need to make a distinction between the ego and a self, when I say a sense of self I purely mean the separation between I-other).

Same air bruh. We ain’t separate. Look to biology, physics, and quantum mechanics. (Just some videos. Start with double slit. Watch 50 times before you think about what is being said there - listen from your soul, sts)

Unconditional. Love.

Love conditions.  Love through them like hot butter. 

Express love to someone today. SEE it in response within them. See that there is only visual apparent separation. Love is infinite. There is nothing else. Love appears too. FEEL Truth. Don’t trust the sense of sight, hearing, etc. Love is blind. 

49 minutes ago, Kshantivadin said:

I'm confused here. What is suffering even? I know that something hurts, big time. Whom does it hurt? Nobody, there is just hurt, can't it just hurt without there being "someone" to hurt? Can't there just be ignorance, if ignorance is the cause of suffering? Of course, in experience, I still get deluded and believe in a self, a lot of the time, most of the time.

Not enough suffering yet actually, I guess otherwise I definitely wouldn't keep riding in samsara like a chimp.

edit : I'm sorry for the amount of ignorance in this post. I'm just plain confused and deluded.

Let go of your belief “samsara”. It’s just one more cover up. 

Love is infinite. Infinite cannot know finite. As such, there appears to be suffering, yet in actuality, there is not finite nor suffering. 

[Nahm]

3 hours ago, 0bserver said:

If that is true then isn't the universe mostly an endless cycle of suffering, how do you come to terms with that? (Could almost compare it to hell)

A tiny percentage of beings become exposed to the wisdom of surrendering to the experience, let alone actually practise it to the point where they significantly reduce their suffering. It seems like we are doomed to reincarnate in countless lives with low levels of consciousness, if you're "lucky" to re-incarnate as human you are still more likely to be born as someone who is religious, probably in some shitty sate red or low orange region, full of delusions and suffering through all the problems of "conventional" people without surrendering to any of it. Suffering all the way to the very end.

What is the point of committing to all of these practises and work our ass off on trying to reach a higher level of consciousness, and becoming more accepting of reality, when in the end all this progress is lost and you will probably be reborn as someone who is much more primitive again and re-suffer in all the ways that you had found solutions to earlier?

There’s no universe, people, earth, etc. This is all thoughts you’re believing. There is no past, no individuals, and in kind no reincarnation. Notice right now, it’s not ‘in the room’, it’s ‘in your head’. Eternity = ? / ♥️ / you, not concepts we come up with about lives, pasts, others, futures, etc. Scrutinize exactly where ‘in your head’ and you’ll find, “it’s” not even a thing in a thing at all. No locations, no time, no space even to begin with. All just beliefs, thoughts, labels, ideas, concepts = the suffering / identity of a separate of love, self, who is in time, space, a universe, on earth, “thinking”. You’ve never thought, done, or moved. Ever. You’re appearing as everything which so convincingly makes it seem so - to you. 

Meditation however...nothing can be said about. 

 

 

[allislove]

2 hours ago, 0bserver said:

Doesn't change the gloomy nature of the universe that a lot of people here seem to believe. Universe is still mostly suffering through different forms, unless there is some kind of silver lining that we don't know of yet. Maybe our imagination is limited by the fact that we can only observe the early days of the conscious experience. Universe will be thousands of times older than it is now, so maybe we are currently just in the dark ages. As the universe evolves and the beings in it become more conscious of their nature, the maximisation of self-love (and therefore maximisation of love for all conscious beings) will lead to much better societies and civilisations that we can't even currently imagine. I'd like to believe that the vast majority of the experience is happening in a more desirable/conscious state. If the experience of the universe of itself would mostly be negative then I would imagine we would not exist in the first place, the most advanced form of the universe possible, some advanced civilisation or whatever would put an end to this cycle.

You would probably respond with "The universe wants to experience it all, it loves everything that is happening", but how can we be sure of that? What if the stage we are in now is not what the universe necessarily "wants" to experience, but rather it's something it HAS to experience in order to reach to more desirable states of self-experience? More like a stepping stone.

It looks to me you're saying that something is wrong now and we move towards a bright future. I would say it's all perfect now.  Every moment goes from perfection to perfection. If you think something is wrong, that's the opportunity for spiritual practice. The practice of accepting what is (including not acceptance), the practice of letting go, the practice of giving love.

[Javfly33]

5 hours ago, Someone here said:

Who listens to who?  There is no me AND " my ego".  There is not even an  ego or thinker of thoughts. Thoughts just arise randomly out of the blue.  And "your" response to them also arise in the same way.. Completely random and out of the blue.  So there is really nothing you can do in the area of listening or not listening to thoughts because there is no "you" in the middle of "your" thoughts. 

If that's true then WHERE is that suffering you are talking about?

Maybe you are confusing thoughts with suffering.

Suffering is not possible because IT IS a thought.

Yet suffering seems to imply it is something different than a thought, when it fact it can't.

It's a thought. In high level of consciousness when the ego complains you see that IT is actually not suffering, it is just a thought. But you buy the ILLUSION that you are suffering (you think you are real).

So don't try to be smart here. You suffer because you are indetified with an individual entity which it's false. If you would stop believing yourself to be the body and the guy who opens the mouth, you would see that when *he complains *he is not suffering, there are just words coming out of *his mouth.

You create the suffering because you imagine it.

 

[0bserver]

29 minutes ago, Nahm said:

There’s no universe, people, earth, etc. This is all thoughts you’re believing. There is no past, no individuals, and in kind no reincarnation. Notice right now, it’s not ‘in the room’, it’s ‘in your head’. Eternity = ? / ♥️ / you, not concepts we come up with about lives, pasts, others, futures, etc. Scrutinize exactly where ‘in your head’ and you’ll find, “it’s” not even a thing in a thing at all. No locations, no time, no space even to begin with. All just beliefs, thoughts, labels, ideas, concepts = the suffering / identity of a separate of love, self, who is in time, space, a universe, on earth, “thinking”. You’ve never thought, done, or moved. Ever. You’re appearing as everything which so convincingly makes it seem so - to you. 

Meditation however...nothing can be said about. 

 

 

I understand the non-dualisitic view, that we have evolved to think in dualities, thoughts and concepts are just mental constructs, fundamentally there is no difference between the self and the other. So how does it make sense to talk about things like reincarnation, isn't this just self-delusion, a story we tell ourselves. But you can't get around the fact that thoughts, labels, concepts are an emergent property that inevitably rise in more complex life systems, so there will always be suffering stemming from that. You can keep saying that these are illusions, but that doesn't mean we can't reason or make meaningful predictions about the state of our universe.

[Javfly33]

4 hours ago, Someone here said:

LOL please this is hilarious. Each moment there is a new me and a new ego and a new thoughts. There is no one identified or misidentified with anything.  Do with this fact whatever you want. 

Lol

Who are you?

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Pain, of course, is purely relative. If you're conscious enough, there will be not difference between pain and pleasure.

How do you even know that pain isn't pleasure, and pleasure isn't pain?

Where in the universe does it say that pain is painful?

If you really focus on pain while it's happening, you can start to notice that it's not actually painful, it's just a feeling.

Try poking yourself with a needle and actually FEEL it without the ego's drama.

I actually become consciouss of this in a Trip.

I hit my foot with the table and I saw how the internal dialogue complained, but meanwhile i was able to "separate" the physical sensation and the complaining! I saw that it was just a physical sensation!

 

[0bserver]

22 minutes ago, allislove said:

It looks to me you're saying that something is wrong now and we move towards a bright future. I would say it's all perfect now.  Every moment goes from perfection to perfection. If you think something is wrong, that's the opportunity for spiritual practice. The practice of accepting what is (including not acceptance), the practice of letting go, the practice of giving love.

I don't think something is wrong. I'm not saying suffering is wrong, as I said it's necessary for evolution towards other states. Why would there be evolution happening in the first place if there isn't a drive towards certain more desirable states? Explain the reason for the existence of evolution. Clearly the universe "desires" to become more conscious of itself, to experience itself more fully.

[Nahm]

32 minutes ago, 0bserver said:

I understand the non-dualisitic view,

Not possible. Ya bamboozled yoself. 

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that we have evolved

That’s 100% belief, 0% direct experience. 

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to think in dualities,

That there is any duality, is only a thought.

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 thoughts and concepts are just mental constructs, fundamentally there is no difference between the self and the other. So how does it make sense to talk about things like reincarnation, isn't this just self-delusion, a story we tell ourselves.

Yes. Until you’ve directly experienced it. 

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But you can't get around the fact that thoughts, labels, concepts are an emergent property that inevitably rise in more complex life systems, so there will always be suffering stemming from that. You can keep saying that these are illusions, but that doesn't mean we can't reason or make meaningful predictions about the state of our universe.

There’s nothing there to ‘get around’. You’re making that up. It’s nice descriptively speaking, but you’re believing thoughts about reality, instead of noticing reality. Still believing in “facts”, from “people”. Make all the reason and predictions you like, just notice you are doing it. Make up all the meaning you like, just notice you are doing it. 

[Mu_]

7 hours ago, Someone here said:

There is a lot of suffering that one can experience in this life. Some people are lucky they experience less suffering and some people are just fated to be in the middle of some extreme shit like starving kids in Africa etc.   Suffering exists so let's not waste time arguing about whether it exists or not.. My question is there a salvation? A permanent end to all forms of suffering?  If so what it is?  Because I don't think there is such a way except permanent annihilation. 

Please make your response non - classical and nuanced because it's so easy to deconstruct woo woo unrealistic answers. Thanks 

 

Imagine reaching a "stage" in which you fundamentally wouldnt even ask the question since you don't see suffering as out of line with anything, nor something that is a problem.  What would that be like?

My sense of you since I met you is that you are at odds with the fact that suffering exists and that you make it to mean something about existence itself.  I dont know if your greatly troubled by this, but it seems to nag at you in some way (I was enraged, depressed, wanted to escape life and never wanted to be apart of something or created by something that would include suffering as part of life.  This went on for years, until I faced all my ideas around suffering and feeling uncomfortableness of body, emotion, mind, life/death).

I think some good questions to look into if your asking this question is "what really is suffering subjectively and objectively", "whats wrong with suffering subjectively and objectively",  "does it need to go away subjectively and objectively", "what doesn't want it there, you?, others?, animals?, aliens?, spirits?" "is the existence of the thing you call suffering make life a problem or God into some twisted creature for having created it and if so, is this just your opinion or objectively true".  "does sufferings existence make life into a negative objectively, or is this just an idea that can be dropped, and if so, why not try and see what happens for a period of time if you did drop this notion"

[allislove]

1 hour ago, 0bserver said:

Explain the reason for the existence of evolution. 

 Pretty much what @Nahm said: "That’s 100% belief, 0% direct experience.".

[0bserver]

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Not possible. Ya Bamboozled yoself.

If it is not possible to understand or directly experience this phenomenon, then why even make up that concept? First of all, what is your definition of non-duality. Because the way I understand it is that a non-dualistic state is where the experience is centerless, there is no distinctions between anything, and everything, including thoughts, and actions/movements feel as seamless and spontaneous as heartbeats, a state without any dichotomies, complete oneness. I'm pretty sure I've experienced this on psychedelics and also able to understand it.

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That's 100% belief, 0% direct experience

The idea of evolution can be observed and confirmed with 100%  consistency anywhere you look. Sure it's a made up idea by the human mind to estimate the ground truth of reality as closely as possible, but that doesn't mean it cant be one of the fundamental processes that takes place in the universe. What's wrong with the idea of the universe becoming aware of its own processes through human forms? Are we not "directly" observing the process of evolution whenever we look for it?

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That there is any duality, is only a thought

Again whats the point of making up this concept and probing it or even having a channel on this forum dedicated for enlightenment topics, if every single idea is just a delusion and only thing that matters is direct experience, why not just have one big page that responds to every question or idea with "its just a thought"

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Yes. Until you’ve directly experienced it. 

How is it possible to directly experience reincarnation, have you directly experienced reincarnation? Seems like self-delusion. It's a story that you have adopted from reading eastern philosophy. There is no way to verify the claim of re-birth

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There’s nothing there to ‘get around’. You’re making that up. It’s nice descriptively speaking, but you’re believing thoughts about reality, instead of noticing reality. Still believing in “facts”, from “people”. Make all the reason and predictions you like, just notice you are doing it. Make up all the meaning you like, just notice you are doing it. 

So is the universe completely limited in understanding itself in absolutely every way? Is it not the fact of existence that the universe is right now experiencing itself through me. How can you say there is nothing to get around when I (universe) in fact am trying to get around something

Edited August 11, 2020 by 0bserver

[0bserver]

Ahh I messed up the formatting of this post ^ I hope this is readable

[Enlightenment]

9 hours ago, Someone here said:

My question is there a salvation? A permanent end to all forms of suffering?  If so what it is?  Because I don't think there is such a way except permanent annihilation. 

Suffering is absolutely necessary for survival. Even if there would be a pill you can take and never be able to suffer again, you wouldn't survive for long. Death is potentially a permanent end of suffering.

As long as you're interested in survival, you should rather ask a question "How to decrease suffering to the point where it's not a big deal anymore and then maintain it"