Why go anywhere beyond no-self?

[4201]

IME, once you realize no-self, all problems are blown away. Until you, inevitably, convince yourself again that there's a self. All the suffering comes from rejecting part of reality because of some assumption held in the self. Once there is (truly) no self, suffering ends.

But why care about where stuff comes from? Why care about the idea that "I" creates the stuff? Why does it matter?

"I am God". Why "I"? Is this what happen when you let go of the assumption of reality but not the assumption of self? I'd rather do the opposite, let go of the self and keep reality. At least it seems more productive to me.

[Consilience]

17 minutes ago, 4201 said:

IME, once you realize no-self,

 

17 minutes ago, 4201 said:

At least it seems more productive to me.

What is existence, but you? You are the most fundamental, the cornerstone, the unfalsifiable nature of your own experience.

Here's an interesting distinction - Who you are is you. What you are is absolutely nothing. What is God? What is infinity? What is reality? What is the present moment? If one can contemplate these from the space of who and what you are, you will go beyond no-self. 

Is it "more productive" to contemplate such matters? This question can only exist, have any meaning, or value at all relative to a self. 

[4201]

3 minutes ago, Consilience said:

Is it "more productive" to contemplate such matters? This question can only exist, have any meaning, or value at all relative to a self. 

True. I'm indeed assuming that there would be a me that is looking to minimize suffering.

5 minutes ago, Consilience said:

What is existence, but you? You are the most fundamental, the cornerstone, the unfalsifiable nature of your own experience.

I agree.

6 minutes ago, Consilience said:

Here's an interesting distinction - Who you are is you. What you are is absolutely nothing. What is God? What is infinity? What is reality? What is the present moment? If one can contemplate these from the space of who and what you are, you will go beyond no-self. 

Basically my question is, would contemplating those help anyone in the cleaning of the self? My self is infected with false beliefs. Seeing those beliefs for what they are fixes the issues basically. I just don't see how those questions fix anything.

In the context of doing things without having any reason to do them, like pure exploration, I don't think there's anything wrong with contemplating those questions. But isn't it crazy to expect that the contemplation of these matters would help the self and mind? Is it really "personal development"?

I would be tempted to think that helping people escape their problematic beliefs and mind-diseases are of higher priority than making them realize they are god. It's crazy to me that a few years ago, Leo was all about no self and now it's all about I am god.

[Leo Gura]

43 minutes ago, 4201 said:

But why care about where stuff comes from? Why care about the idea that "I" creates the stuff? Why does it matter?

Why care about suffering?

Why boil down God's Creation to the escape from suffering? Can you see how reductive, lame, and selfish that is?

When you adopt an attitude of only caring about things in order to avoid them causing your suffering, this is biggest disrespect you can do upon God.

It's like caring about a rose only to avoid its thorns.

[Preety_India]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Can you see how reductive, lame, and selfish that is?

Put it differently. You can also see it as liberation from pain. It doesn't appear much selfish then. 

Wanting freedom from suffering is not really a selfish thing. 

By that logic wanting suffering for others should be considered a selfless thing. 

 

 

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Wanting freedom from suffering is not really a selfish thing.

Of course it is!

If you were truly selfless you wouldn't care about suffering. The avoidance of suffering is the epitome of survival, since suffering itself is survival.

Paradoxically, the only way to transcend suffering is to stop caring about it.

God doesn't really care about suffering. Which is why it exists.

[4201]

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Why care about suffering?

Why boil down God's Creation to the escape from suffering? Can you see how reductive, lame, and selfish that is?

When you adopt an attitude of only caring about things in order to avoid them causing your suffering, this is biggest disrespect you can do upon God.

It's like caring about a rose only to avoid its thorns.

There's nothing being avoided though, suffering vanishes from total acceptance of reality as it is.

It's true that I cannot boil down God's creation to the escape of suffering. In practice I don't know how to put it. It just feels good to be selfless. It's clear that's this is what I want to do. "Escape of suffering" was a justification for that but in practice I don't really justify it at all.

Why deconstruct reality though? Is it done with a reason in mind? Is Truth being pursued? Why? Does it feel even better? Why? Where does "feel good" even comes from?

This thread is quite ironic because I'm already showing the curiosity that is required to go there I guess. But it still seems not relevant to me right now since I am not fully selfless and I'm not sure I'll be fully selfless in the next 40 years, even with my regular drug usage and daily meditation.

There is a me that is scared of bending reality to fit the self as a distraction/avoidance of letting the self go.

Edited August 11, 2020 by 4201

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, 4201 said:

Why deconstruct reality though?

Deconstructing reality is part of the ego-deconstructing process.

The point, though, is not to keep deconstructing reality, but to explore and interconnect it.

You may have realized no-self, but there's still a ton of stuff you're not conscious of.

[4201]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Deconstructing reality is part of the ego-deconstructing process.

The point, though, is not to keep deconstructing reality, but to explore and interconnect it.

I see that I have nothing to worry about then.

Thank you

[Nahm]

@4201

Thought is sneakier than you’re yet imagined. 

[4201]

2 hours ago, Nahm said:

@4201

Thought is sneakier than you’re yet imagined. 

It's like I know but I always forget. I don't understand why though. I see why the mind would protect the self using deception (since it cares more about self than truth) but I don't see why the mind would recreate a self using deception after realizing there's no self.

Is it a symptom of an existing contradiction within the mind, which can only be explained by the creation of a self? But then, why did I not experience this contradiction last time I realized no self. Perhaps I just did not think about it.

In the end thought is sneaky but it's just a tool of the mind, not the source of the problem. Isn't it better to look for why the mind wants to trick itself rather than constantly be worried about how it tricks itself?

Would the mind trick itself if it had no reason to do so?

[Nahm]

27 minutes ago, 4201 said:

It's like I know but I always forget. I don't understand why though. I see why the mind would protect the self using deception (since it cares more about self than truth) but I don't see why the mind would recreate a self using deception after realizing there's no self.

That there is a why, and that it has been realized there is no self, is the deception at play here. Thinking there is no self is not realizing there is no self. Realizing no self, there’s no longer the questions of whys.

Quote

Is it a symptom of an existing contradiction within the mind, which can only be explained by the creation of a self? But then, why did I not experience this contradiction last time I realized no self. Perhaps I just did not think about it.

Perhaps you did just think about. 

Quote

In the end thought is sneaky but it's just a tool of the mind, not the source of the problem. Isn't it better to look for why the mind wants to trick itself rather than constantly be worried about how it tricks itself?

Would the mind trick itself if it had no reason to do so?

Problems don’t have a source. 

If you ask me should I constantly, or even for a second worry about _________, I will always answer no, no matter what is in that blank. Worry is bamboozlment. 

The mind would never trick itself because a mind does not exist. To arrive at that to begin with, is to believe thoughts.

 

[4201]

@Nahm Perhaps reality does not exist (and thus neither the mind) but perceptions build a reality which is consistent with itself. To me it doesn't seem insane to ask how would the mind-body model relate to my experience. Perhaps it is indeed not a reason or a "why" but I still find value in understanding what would motivate a mind-body to create the self in the first place.

At least, it has been extremely useful to me to realize that a (overly) proud self-image has been created to oppose the deep assumption that I should be ashamed of myself.

While I see what you mean, that I should realize there's no me rather than think about it. I do see how you don't need to invent a mind to be conscious of thoughts and therefore avoid their trickyness. I can't help but try to think about what are my other deep dysfunctional assumptions that are currently messing things up. I tend to be under the impression that the reason there's a me is to cover up those assumptions and that it would no longer be tricky to realize no-self if I was free of those assumptions.

EDIT: I digress, this "study of the mind" idea is just another way in which I create a "me" that is not consciousness and try to understand the false me. Sorry for making so much bullshit. Thank you for your help.

Edited August 12, 2020 by 4201