Is it really that bad to save sex for marriage? (Non-Religious)

[K Ghoul]

2 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

He may change. Everyone is subject to change, sometimes even radically, like 180°. Simple.

@Gesundheit Then he will no longer be married to me. Simple as that.

[Gesundheit]

Just now, K Ghoul said:

@Gesundheit Then he will no longer be married to me. Simple as that.

Yeah you can do that for sure. But OP seems to have built a huge fantasy around marriage being something perfect that can never go wrong. As I said, it's only to bring in more awareness.

[K Ghoul]

3 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

He may change. Everyone is subject to change, sometimes even radically, like 180°. Simple.

@Gesundheit And honestly I can’t say I fully believe that people can just change, 180, just like that out of nowhere. People generally don’t change, it’s not that easy. At least not in my experience, haven’t encounter anyone who would just change 180, just like that. I feel like you’re just saying things for the sake of winning the argument.

[Shir]

3 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

No problem. And best of luck in finding your perfect soulmate and raising your perfect children 

(beware of perfectionism though)

@Gesundheit Thank you, I really do appreciate it and mean it!  Good luck as well in finding your soulmate too (if you haven't already). I totally understand perfection isn't real, I think more so the opposite is more beautiful so I totally get you haha. 

[Danioover9000]

@K Ghoul

2 hours ago, K Ghoul said:

@Gesundheit And honestly I can’t say I fully believe that people can just change, 180, just like that out of nowhere. People generally don’t change, it’s not that easy. At least not in my experience, haven’t encounter anyone who would just change 180, just like that. I feel like you’re just saying things for the sake of winning the argument.

   I also agree. There are a few cases when it's extremely traumatic will there be 180 degree changes. However, it also depends on how fluid the personality and mind there other person has. I've met some people that have this flexibility of mind.

[Shir]

3 hours ago, Consept said:

Can I ask what the point of this thread is, you seem pretty set on your beliefs already, did you just want confirmation and people to agree with you? People will understand why you might feel that way but in general I don't think people will agree. Even though you say it's not religious, it is a very stage blue idea and most here either desire to or have moved past that stage 

@Consept The point of the thread, for me, was trying to understand why my stance is super odd/radical just because I am not religious and hold these thoughts/beliefs in what I want to do in regards to the topic; because, others who literally hold the same beliefs as me, whom are religious - are NOT being judged so harshly and everyone "get's them" perfectly fine. And so, i wanted to present my thoughts and honestly understand why it's so weird because on the outside if I said I'm religious - they would be VERY MUCH appected and respected. However being that I am not - there are seen very oddly and so that is why I also was interest in the perspective of the opposite sex, in my situation. Basically, I wanted to shed a light on this type of hyposcrisy which I think is ridiculous tbh. 

I am very set on my beliefs, yes - I don't know anyone can change them 180 lol. That's not to say I don't mind reading other's opinion, I enjoy so. Perspective is very, very important. Literally just the other day I saw this vid from an OB/GYN that talked about the BIOLOGICAL function of a hymen and it was veryyyy insightful as it has nothing to do with sex/purity ect. It made me question, for a moment, how biologically my stance doesn't matter. And so yes - although I am set on my beliefs, I do have moments like these that do make me question them if they're met the right way, so to speak.

I thank anyone that says anything they believe in DOES want confirmation - it's a very pychological need that everyone shares, not only me. 

Moving past stage blue is awesome, don't get me wrong, I'm just not in the business of wanting ppl to agree with me (although that's very, very nice and makes me and anyone else feel great) - I just want to be heard and understood because this topic is not met nicely in the real world and like I seen - seen as odd. 

Hopefully I could explain myself better. 

[Shir]

3 hours ago, K Ghoul said:

“The reality is that you can never guarantee that your husband will turn out to be a good person.” - yes you can. This is called dating, and is the time that a woman should spend on figuring out who he is, and not sleeping with him. If she pays attention she will know exactly who she’s marrying, so there will be no surprises. If he proved himself as not a good person, then she should not marry him. Simple 

@K Ghoul EXACTLY !!!! I completely agree  

I'm very pro dating, hopefully my post doesn't make it seem like I'm only into getting married just to get married and not into getting to know the other person haha. 

[Gesundheit]

2 hours ago, K Ghoul said:

@Gesundheit And honestly I can’t say I fully believe that people can just change, 180, just like that out of nowhere. People generally don’t change, it’s not that easy. At least not in my experience, haven’t encounter anyone who would just change 180, just like that. I feel like you’re just saying things for the sake of winning the argument.

Lol I don't know about others but I myself have changed 180° in the past decade back and forth and I still see potential for more radical changes in the decade to come so I don't know.

Of course not everyone changes like I did, but people do change to certain extents, and if they don't, they will become outdated. So it's basically like playing with fire. You're damned if you change or if you don't.

Do I win yet? 

[Shir]

3 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

Yeah you can do that for sure. But OP seems to have built a huge fantasy around marriage being something perfect that can never go wrong. As I said, it's only to bring in more awareness.

@Gesundheit I totally understand marriage isn't perfect and stuff can go wrong like infidelity and other things BUT I feel like there's a reason marriage is important, sacred and distinct from just a conventional bf-gf relationship. At this point in my life, I'm not dating just to be a gf, I'm dating as wife material. I don't care to be a gf, seems like a waste of time for me (at this point) (personally!!). 

Ya'll may think I'm weird but you should read up into soul mates. Read up into actual sprituality. There's beautiful things to be said about marriage as well. I respect it. I look up to that and take marriage very seriously. Nothing is perfect of course but I do think marriage is still the pinnacle of realtionships and I've never wavered on that tbh. 

Edited August 13, 2020 by Shir

[Mu_]

On 8/12/2020 at 11:28 AM, Shir said:

@Roy NO, you don't get to tell people "how to interpret things "properly" - take some damn responsibility for your shitty AND dumb, old fashioned analogies. I'm the last woman on earth that would ever listen to a man who thinks "I'm not taking things right" when he goes around spewing such and utter nonesense. I stand my ground, you should be damn ashamed of yourself. 

I would NEVER tell a man that "I need to test drive him before I X/Y/Z him" - what in the actual hell is wrong with you? I don't care that you said "it goes both ways" - NEVER DEGRADE A WOMAN NOR A MAN TO OBJECTS.

Obviously analogies aren't meant to be taken literally since anyone who is logical KNOWS a person is not a CAR - but you cannot go and degrade and belittle human beings by making ANALOGIES between them and objects. That's freaking wrong. 

You said you would like a daughter right?

Next time you actually do, tell her she's a car. A car men need to test. And, if she's not good enough - that's okay, because other men can test her too. Every man on the steet can test her. You're just an object sweetie, for the sexual pleasure of men. It's okay. Don't cry, maybe you'll be a good enough car for other men next time. You should objectify your body like a good, good car for them sweetie. 

You don't have the balls to ever tell a precious daughter shit like that - So do me a favor and NEVER spew such nonsence ever again. 

@Roy

 

Calm down a little and don't jump to such conclusions of someones intentions, you really went off on this person without any evidence that he meant what you thought he meant.  Sure he said an analogy, but it doesn't mean the analogy itself is inherently degrading since it can and is used both ways and it sometimes it can be used in play, and sometimes it can be used just as an expression, and sometimes it can be used in a way that is less encompassing of a persons totality.  Even if he was a little disrespectful (which I didn't feel he was) is your attack at him going to help him see another way?  Most likely an attack on him like that will just make him more defensive and may even reinforce a belief of women that they are just bat shit crazy around women that they are just crazy people (I say this because i'd imagine a person who sees women as objects is more likely to have other stereo typical idea as well). 

[Shir]

2 minutes ago, Mu_ said:

is your attack at him going to help him see another way?

Other women before me have already pointed out exactly what I stated myself. I don't feel the need to muffle my thoughts on the subject. 

Maybe if more than 1 woman is trying to tell you something - that's an indication that what you said is not right/does't sit well with ppl and needs to be inspected. 

I will say this again - do not make an analogy between human beings and objects. I do not take lightly any objectifaction of human beings. 

I've been made to feel objectifed for all of my teen years + adult years -> there's a reason I am saying what I am saying and how rude of an analogy that was. 

Instead of defending that, you should try to understand why we women aren't too fond of being in an analogy with cars. We do not need to be test drived. We're worth more than that, thank you very much. 

7 minutes ago, Mu_ said:

reinforce a belief of women that they are just bat shit crazy

Don't say stupid shit to women, then you won't get "bat shit crazy" responses - crazy idea right?

Here's another beauty - play stupid games, win stupid prizes. 

[Consept]

22 minutes ago, Shir said:

@Consept The point of the thread, for me, was trying to understand why my stance is super odd/radical just because I am not religious and hold these thoughts/beliefs in what I want to do in regards to the topic; because, others who literally hold the same beliefs as me, whom are religious - are NOT being judged so harshly and everyone "get's them" perfectly fine. And so, i wanted to present my thoughts and honestly understand why it's so weird because on the outside if I said I'm religious - they would be VERY MUCH appected and respected. However being that I am not - there are seen very oddly and so that is why I also was interest in the perspective of the opposite sex, in my situation. Basically, I wanted to shed a light on this type of hyposcrisy which I think is ridiculous tbh. 

I am very set on my beliefs, yes - I don't know anyone can change them 180 lol. That's not to say I don't mind reading other's opinion, I enjoy so. Perspective is very, very important. Literally just the other day I saw this vid from an OB/GYN that talked about the BIOLOGICAL function of a hymen and it was veryyyy insightful as it has nothing to do with sex/purity ect. It made me question, for a moment, how biologically my stance doesn't matter. And so yes - although I am set on my beliefs, I do have moments like these that do make me question them if they're met the right way, so to speak.

I thank anyone that says anything they believe in DOES want confirmation - it's a very pychological need that everyone shares, not only me. 

Moving past stage blue is awesome, don't get me wrong, I'm just not in the business of wanting ppl to agree with me (although that's very, very nice and makes me and anyone else feel great) - I just want to be heard and understood because this topic is not met nicely in the real world and like I seen - seen as odd. 

Hopefully I could explain myself better. 

I think i get where youre coming from, you want to know why your belief that sex should only be within marriage and that marriage is sacred, is judged as being weird, whereas people who are religious its more accepted. 

I think to answer your question, most people who arent religious see (organised) religious people as somewhat brainwashed into having the values they have. I say that because all muslims have roughly the same values and beliefs, all catholics have roughly the same beliefs, so the values and beliefs havent come about from introspection or study, theyve just been adopted wholesale and i think outsiders can sypmpathise and understand that, and so dont necessarily question the lack of logic as they are aware of how they belief has been formed.  

With you, youre saying youre not religious but youve still come to the same kind of belief around marriage most religious people come to. So here in lies the reason why people might think its weird just because they cant understand how youve come to that belief. As i mentioned in a previous post i dont consider marriage sacred for various reasons and any belief structure as just that a creation to maintain some kind of order in society. Of course im not trying to convince you of doing anything but im just pointing out the flaws in your arguments for your belief, most of them are naive and not even really logical. There maybe some deeper psychological reasons that we dont know as well. But i think in general youll get push back on this forum because many are trying to not hold onto any beliefs and even see the separation between them and 'my beliefs'. Ultimately that is where spirituality will take you, you wont be associated with any kind of identity.

So those with strong beliefs and identities usually stand out quite a lot, really to grow you would need to consider not being so tied to such beliefs or look at them from different perspectives. 

[Consept]

12 minutes ago, Shir said:

I will say this again - do not make an analogy between human beings and objects. I do not take lightly any objectifaction of human beings. 

This is quite a ridiculous quote, people make analogies comparing humans to objects all the time, it wouldnt make much sense comparing a human to human. 'Having sex with a human is exactly like having sex with a human' literally means nothing lol. 

Spiritual gurus use analogies like this all the time, it doesnt mean youre conflating a human with a machine or an animal. Maybe you hold some trauma around that but you should be careful projecting that onto others when there was no ill intention there  

[Gesundheit]

@Shir don't place your highest hopes on marriage. Just sayin.

My advice is to be more realistic and listen and read more about other people's experiences both of relationships and marriage. Like you said, if you take marriage seriously you need to research very well among the stories of others. Everyone thinks that they're special and that their marriage is not going to be a mistake like other dumb people. Yet, I have rarely heard of any marriage that is successful. This raises an eyebrow for me. Why is this the case? You ever thought about that?

[Shir]

@Consept

4 minutes ago, Consept said:

I think i get where youre coming from, you want to know why your belief that sex should only be within marriage and that marriage is sacred, is judged as being weird, whereas people who are religious its more accepted. 

TOTALLY!!! I'm glad your got me - thank you for that  

4 minutes ago, Consept said:

I think to answer your question, most people who arent religious see (organised) religious people as somewhat brainwashed into having the values they have. I say that because all muslims have roughly the same values and beliefs, all catholics have roughly the same beliefs, so the values and beliefs havent come about from introspection or study, theyve just been adopted wholesale and i think outsiders can sypmpathise and understand that, and so dont necessarily question the lack of logic as they are aware of how they belief has been formed.  

You're right, I totally understand the whole brainwashing thing. Makes a lot of sense. 

Btw funny enough - I'm not Muslin Nor Christian/Catholic haha...but strangely enough I am drawn to the latter.

I enjoyed the way you worded things - I completely agree! You're soo right.

6 minutes ago, Consept said:

With you, youre saying youre not religious but youve still come to the same kind of belief around marriage most religious people come to. So here in lies the reason why people might think its weird just because they cant understand how youve come to that belief. As i mentioned in a previous post i dont consider marriage sacred for various reasons and any belief structure as just that a creation to maintain some kind of order in society. Of course im not trying to convince you of doing anything but im just pointing out the flaws in your arguments for your belief, most of them are naive and not even really logical. There maybe some deeper psychological reasons that we dont know as well. But i think in general youll get push back on this forum because many are trying to not hold onto any beliefs and even see the separation between them and 'my beliefs'. Ultimately that is where spirituality will take you, you wont be associated with any kind of identity.

So those with strong beliefs and identities usually stand out quite a lot, really to grow you would need to consider not being so tied to such beliefs or look at them from different perspectives. 

I see what you're saying yes, that the "odd" thing with my situation is that from the outside it seems to be weird that I've come to this.

I respect you prointing out my flaws in my arguments yes, that's fine. I don't remember if I've mentioned it in a reponse to you or someone else that pointed out in question if there's any other psychological reaon/s for my stance - but I did answer that I do have a deep rooted fear for rejection. Now, I think it's also abandonment (now that I'm thinking about it - probably a mix of the 2). I've been rejected a lot in my life, for many different reasons; by family, friends, men and potentional partners (aka those that really wanted to propose). Hopefully this makes more sense. 

I totally get you on the push back aspect of not being tied to any beliefs/spotting them out - I see this keeps occuring on my thread/others and so now I understand more so the pushback. I totally understand that there are benefits to doing so but for some reason was not prepared to have it done to me lol. Opps. 

I apprecaite the notion of looking at things from different perspective yes, but the more I seem to try and do it (with the help of you and others that have commented on my thread) - it makes me feel like I am so much happier/content in sticking to my beliefs and that they make so much logical sense to me in every way, shape and form. Hopefully that makes sense despite everything I said. 

[Shir]

12 minutes ago, Consept said:

when there was no ill intention there 

@Consept He literally said that analogy AND said "every other reason is stupid" -> pretty sure there was ill intention here and if not, it was not welcome. 

[Mu_]

29 minutes ago, Shir said:

Other women before me have already pointed out exactly what I stated myself. I don't feel the need to muffle my thoughts on the subject. 

Maybe if more than 1 woman is trying to tell you something - that's an indication that what you said is not right/does't sit well with ppl and needs to be inspected. 

I will say this again - do not make an analogy between human beings and objects. I do not take lightly any objectifaction of human beings. 

I've been made to feel objectifed for all of my teen years + adult years -> there's a reason I am saying what I am saying and how rude of an analogy that was. 

Instead of defending that, you should try to understand why we women aren't too fond of being in an analogy with cars. We do not need to be test drived. We're worth more than that, thank you very much. 

Don't say stupid shit to women, then you won't get "bat shit crazy" responses - crazy idea right?

Here's another beauty - play stupid games, win stupid prizes. 

So if you have ideas of someone that they dont like would you like them to tell you nicely or at least inquire into what you mean or your reasoning or go ape shit and attack and accuse you before you have a chance to explain your intentions?

[Consept]

6 minutes ago, Shir said:

I don't remember if I've mentioned it in a reponse to you or someone else that pointed out in question if there's any other psychological reaon/s for my stance - but I did answer that I do have a deep rooted fear for rejection. Now, I think it's also abandonment (now that I'm thinking about it - probably a mix of the 2). I've been rejected a lot in my life, for many different reasons; by family, friends, men and potentional partners (aka those that really wanted to propose). Hopefully this makes more sense. 

I dont remember you saying this previously but yes that makes a lot of sense to me and i think many can relate to that as well. I would say to explore these feelings, this is the more difficult path but i think potentially you could be so strong in your beliefs because youre trying to avoid this pain and trauma. Your beliefs may protect you from facing this, it is definitely the harder path but ultimately its the one that will allow you to grow the most. Even if everything goes to plan, ie you get married and the guys perfect bla bla bla, you will still have these unaddressed issues that may affect you a lot down the line. 

 

9 minutes ago, Shir said:

I apprecaite the notion of looking at things from different perspective yes, but the more I seem to try and do it (with the help of you and others that have commented on my thread) - it makes me feel like I am so much happier/content in sticking to my beliefs and that they make so much logical sense to me in every way, shape and form. Hopefully that makes sense despite everything I said. 

Yes it makes sense that you would feel this way, its the same reason why anyone sticks to any belief. It offers comfort and certainty and lets you keep belief structures up that protect you from facing things. But I would assume if youre on this forum you do want to push yourself and grow and i think this would be a good opportunity to really test those beliefs. If they are true then theres nothing to worry about but i think you can recognise somewhere that you are holding on to them for other reasons, if you can see it when others do it thats good, but seeing it in yourself is the most important. 

[Shir]

6 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

don't place your highest hopes on marriage. Just sayin.

My advice is to be more realistic and listen and read more about other people's experiences both of relationships and marriage. Like you said, if you take marriage seriously you need to research very well among the stories of others. Everyone thinks that they're special and that their marriage is not going to be a mistake like other dumb people. Yet, I have rarely heard of any marriage that is successful. This raises an eyebrow for me. Why is this the case? You ever thought about that?

@Gesundheit I understand, yes. I realize marriage isn't perfect. 

I don't feel happy/interested in or excited to just have a "regular" relationship because it doesn't seem like anything to look forward to and it seems super juvenile to older you get. Like, I get it that ppl are happy either way and that's AWESOME but I don't think it's for me - and who knows? Maybe marriage isn't for me either but it's someone that I feel like is still a pinnacle to relationships.

I've heard of ppl that have been together for literally 9 years, got married and then divorced a year-2 years later. I wonder why that is? It does make you question stuff for sure. 

You're right though, everyone still needs to look more into "what they're getting into" when it comes to marriage, I get you. 

Sorry to hear you have no heard of any marriage that is successful though - I have heard of many lol. You see alot of them that are if you look well enough.

[Danioover9000]

@Shir  I've seen enough of your posts to say that you are very similar to religious types, how religious types can't go beyond literal meanings and is very set on beliefs is very close to religious way of life.