How to use psychedelics to reach permanent enlightenment?

[actualizing25]

@Moksha So suffering is your main motivation to get enlightened?

[Nahm]

On 8/10/2020 at 5:20 AM, actualizing25 said:

Leo said it is possible to reach permanent enlightenment through the use of psychedelics, well how do you do it? Because there are a few people here on this forum who are permanent ly awake and they did it mainly through psychedelics, so its obviously possible.

What is the difference between there being people who are permanently awake, and you no longer believing in ‘people’?

What is “permanent enlightenment” then?

Who is, or would, or could be?

[Moksha]

13 hours ago, The0Self said:

Especially existential suffering. "Break on through to the other side."

I see no reason for this to be ultimately true though. There are a million ways to get enlightened and all of them at the end of the day are just an every-which-way-confused upside down and cross-eyed swan dive into the abyss.

You are the abyss, and suffering is the thing that shoves you into it. Freefalling into yourself is a great ride

[Moksha]

2 hours ago, actualizing25 said:

@Moksha So suffering is your main motivation to get enlightened?

I wouldn't call it a motivation so much as a force. Suffering wakes you up, whether you want it to or not. It is the main way Consciousness becomes aware of itself.

[actualizing25]

@Moksha Many people are suffering. Most of them dont wake up. Some even kill themselves.

[Moksha]

9 minutes ago, actualizing25 said:

@Moksha Many people are suffering. Most of them dont wake up. Some even kill themselves.

Exactly. Suffering only awakens people when they are ready to be awakened. The apple only falls from the tree when it is ripe enough to lose its attachment.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Moksha

[actualizing25]

@Moksha okay, then, when is someone ready for awakening?

[Moksha]

@actualizing25 When they awaken. It's not a choice. Suffering happens to you, and if you're lucky, eventually you ripen enough that the suffering slams you out of the dream and back into the reality that you are.

Leo might say, you could just take a psychedelic instead. I'm old school though; I prefer the path of suffering

[The0Self]

Psychedelics don’t really provide an abiding state of enlightenment. They just give you an opportunity to have insights and increased conscious energy, for the courage and freedom to step into a higher state of consciousness. That’s not enlightenment. The enlightened inhabit the same dream state as people, but are lucid in it. In it, not of it.

If you want an abiding state of enlightenment, then, well, to paraphrase Jed McKenna off the top of my head:

“Ramana Maharshi’s self inquiry is the bomb. The only way ‘who am I?’ can fail to result in enlightenment is if you fail to do it. But almost nobody actually does it. The sincere practice of self inquiry would take a year or two of excruciatingly intense processing to go all the way through.“

To really do self inquiry is to set fire to your life. Not that anything will actually fall apart, but it may or may not seem to, and you have to be unconcerned with the outcome, whatever it may be. Still want enlightenment?

Edited October 30, 2020 by The0Self

[actualizing25]

@The0Self But enlightenment is also a state of consciousness. And with psychedelics you can access different states of consciousness, one of it would be the state of enlightenment.

[The0Self]

4 minutes ago, actualizing25 said:

@The0Self But enlightenment is also a state of consciousness. And with psychedelics you can access different states of consciousness, one of it would be the state of enlightenment.

That’s a misunderstanding of enlightenment. It can’t be understood because it’s too simple to get.

[actualizing25]

@The0Self So psychedelics cant give you glimpses of enlightenment?

[The0Self]

3 minutes ago, actualizing25 said:

@The0Self So psychedelics cant give you glimpses of enlightenment?

Oh yes. They can. But enlightenment is the end of glimpses.

[Nahm]

Cause you are always, amazing. 

[Moksha]

Whether you wake up in the traditional way, or through a conscious-altering substance, you still have to do the work of dissolving your aversions and desires. The ego doesn't die just because you're awake. It fights to the bitter end to defend its pretense of an existence. It lurks in the corner like a good little shadow as long as you observe it, but the moment you look elsewhere, it looms with a knife at your back.

Enlightenment tastes like poison at first, which turns to nectar. The ego tastes like nectar at first, which turns to poison. Once you learn that lesson, and remember it enough times, you will finally find the wisdom to deny the ego its day. 

Not today, ego! Not today.

[flume]

No one's permanently awake. We all need some sleep

[deci belle]

Some, maybe even most people can benefit from the right psychotropics taken at the right time in the right frame of mind, during the right period of one's serendipitous path of preliminary psychological de-constructivism but it is by no means necessary. We're lucky in this age, because it's relatively easy to try various drugs' effectiveness for initial entry into spiritual self-refinement— but perhaps it is too easy. Ultimately, it is a dead-end. Literally. Terrence McKenna, anyone? Brilliant, but dead. For all the good it does, the toll it takes on the psychological apparatus and the physical body is tremendous. So don't fool yourselves. It's like the spiritual quest itself in that regard, which is exemplified by an admonition in the Art of War stating that war is a serious drain on a country, and it is best to be fast and clumsy (in gaining the insight that drugs provide, like flashes in a night battle, of the lay of one's own psychological terrain). But ultimately, one must proceed alone, in the dark and without any artificial aid other than the grace one is fortunate enough to receive. The process has no shortcuts. It is crucial to neither lag behind or rush ahead in accomplishing the purpose of self-refinement itself, which only then with subsequent advance practice, results in a spontaneous event called seeing one's nature.

What is the purpose of self-refinement? It is to refine away the errant human mentality. That is, the mind that thinks there is a person "progressing", "improving", and being "spiritual." Furthermore, in terms of the instantaneous realization one's nature— it does not confer buddhahood. Buddhahood is the working definition of "permanent stabilization of enlightening accord in reality." Sudden enlightenment is "planting the seed of buddhahood in the homeland of nothing whatsoever." Buddha said that nothing whatsoever is gained by complete perfect realization. "You" just see what has been aglow all along. It's you, but you're not it. There is no thing. Mind is selfless. There is no self. it's just the way it is, and no one knows why.

So realize that at every stage, further refining practice is necessary. The first trip is short, in that the path resulting in sudden realization of the nature of your own mind as it is at this very moment is finite. The second trip is long, in that subsequent advance enlightening practice is endless.

So in experiencing sudden enlightenment, it is selflessly awake experience. Nothing whatsoever is to be known. Why? There's no being. Awake, isn't the person that knows, or realizes that there is nothing to know. It's just your own mind right now that knows; that already knows. Deliberately employing drugs to sunder one's conditional illusion of absolute identity may be a fast-track, or may perhaps only be a diversion for most people from authentic practice. It's like, do you go to a sexy art-school (drugs) or do you just get in the trenches and do the work (self-refinement). Eventually, you will have to do the work. If you don't, you'll never come to see real potential, gather it in sufficiency over a long period of time and then subsequently, through no fault of your own, see essence and then return, to subsequently LEARN TO APPLY IT IN ORDINARY SITUATIONS.

Does anyone know how ego invades such well-meant forays into bliss-inducing and supposed ego-sundering pill-popping? Well, it does and it's called spiritual materialism. It's a psychological mindset that convinces the individual that consuming such things is a thing in and of itself and that such things actually effect one's (false) identity by "improving" and "progressing" it, during which all this time these very thoughts of personal progress are defeating the true purpose of self refinement in the first stages, which is, for beginners, is to realize that ego-consciousness is only a wonderfully brilliant and truly mysterious function, not one's true identity; that enlightened consciousness, permanent or otherwise, is ALSO a function, in terms of human being; and that clinging to either aspects of human awareness is as delusional as the other.

From personal experience, taking psychotropics for a "reason" reeks of spiritual materialism, relative to ego-aggradisement. But then again, you never know. As for permanent enlightenment, enlightenment just is. It has never moved. The point of spiritual accomplishment is in its subsequent application. Enlightenment is not a thing. An ancient admonishment for those with spiritual ambitions is to "see essence on your own, then seek a teacher."

Moksha has a very good perspective on this aspect, as well as on that of suffering or affliction. Gautama buddha himself said that suffering was the very impetus for seeking liberation. Liberation from what? Liberation is not being subject to habit-consciousness. Open awareness is what, I believe flume was referring to when she commented on being permanently awake. I'm assuming her's was an attempt at levity. The truth is, stabilization of open consciousness is 24/7, and attaining such stability of awareness is a total immersion in enlightening potential. Sleep? You can sleep when you're dead, and you can dream when you're deluded. There are no dreams for the enlightened. The sleeping dreamworld  is 24/7 for the most of us right now..

Moksha wrote:

Quote

 

When they awaken. It's not a choice. Suffering happens to you, and if you're lucky, eventually you ripen enough that the suffering slams you out of the dream and back into the reality that you are.

Leo might say, you could just take a psychedelic instead. I'm old school though; I prefer the path of suffering 

 

Don't forget, people, that awakening isn't a thing unto itself. Actually applying enlightenment to conditions is where refined psychological awareness has reverted to its original supportive role in effecting one's nonpsychological potential (enlightening activity) in the midst of delusional (karmic) evolution unbeknownst to anyone. There are no two minds. Mind is one. The two functions are seamless in terms of subtle spiritual adaption to conditions.

 

 

ed note: add "when she commented on" in 7th paragraph; add last three sentences

Edited November 1, 2020 by deci belle

[Moksha]

@deci belle Beautifully realized. It is a one-way freefall into the soul void that is Self. The deeper you go, the more you are.

I have a sense that the mind creates the ego for a reason. It's almost like it is protecting itself from itself, until it no longer needs protection. That may be why my instinct is to avoid psychedelics. It feels more safe to dissolve when the time is right. This may be why some people suffer an existential crisis after experiencing psychedelics; their mind isn't ready for the realization yet. You can pluck the apple from the tree when it looks ripe, but it may be wiser to wait for it to fall when it is ready. It took a long time to let go, but I'm loving the downward plunge.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Moksha

[actualizing25]

@Moksha So you just wait until the suffering is so much that you eventually awaken? like Eckart Tolle?

There is no "being ready" when it comes to awakening. You have to force it if you want to awaken. Thats basically all spiritual practices in a nutshell. People dont meditate in a cave for monthes without any reason. They do it because they want to awaken. If you do nothing, you wont awaken.

[Moksha]

41 minutes ago, actualizing25 said:

@Moksha So you just wait until the suffering is so much that you eventually awaken? like Eckart Tolle?

There is no "being ready" when it comes to awakening. You have to force it if you want to awaken. Thats basically all spiritual practices in a nutshell. People dont meditate in a cave for monthes without any reason. They do it because they want to awaken. If you do nothing, you wont awaken.

There are many paths to awakening. You can "force" the awakening by taking a psychedelic, but you take the risk of not being ready for the realization. Suffering and the traditional yoga paths of meditation, renunciation, selfless service, and devotion can all lead to awakening. The advantage they have over psychedelics is that the awakening is more likely to happen when you are ready for it.

Not being ready for it can create an existential crisis, which is a risk to your psyche. That doesn't mean people can't successfully navigate the crisis; many have done so. I hear The Tibetan Book of the Dead is a good user manual for that path  

Edited November 1, 2020 by Moksha