Difference between awakening and turquoise?

[Display_Name]

38 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Except that's wrong.

The reality is that even if you set a very high standard for enlightenment, it will still be the case that you can have enlightened masters who subscribe to outdated, primitive, and false beliefs.

It's crucial to draw a line between enlightenment vs changing the contents of the mind. They are not equivalent. And if you ever equate them, you will be in for a rude awakening as you will be unable to explain why otherwise deeply enlightened people still end up believing and doing stupid shit.

This is the classic newbie mistake of over-idealizing enlightenment and gurus.

Enlightenment is NOT moral perfection. Nor is it a sophisticated understanding of worldly affairs. Nor is it a guarantee against errors in knowledge.

It doesn’t have to be changing the content, simply seeing the content for what it is, this is no idealization at all but rather the absolute minimum for enlightenment. I’d be surprised if there’s a disagreement here.

Enlightened people can continue to do stupid shit, the question is if they subscribe truth to their stupid shit or not.

If people are still subscribing to beliefs like they are True, they’re not fully (FULLY) enlightened. It has nothing to do with moral perfection.

Said differently, I am saying if the Buddha was a bigot, and he took his own bigotry seriously (!), he was not a full Buddha, simple.

You said it yourself, love for all people of different kinds is the best measure for a good mystic. Now you’re backtracking and saying you can be fully enlightened but still hate because content is just content (I know, that’s the point!!) to refute the moral perfection idealization I didn’t actually make.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Display_Name

[Leo Gura]

27 minutes ago, Display_Name said:

If people are still subscribing to beliefs like they are True, they’re not fully (FULLY) enlightened.

This is precisely incorrect.

Enlightened people subscribe to all sorts of stupid beliefs. This is the norm.

[Display_Name]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This is precisely incorrect.

Enlightened people subscribe to all sorts of stupid beliefs. This is the norm.

awakened, not fully Enlightened. Why are you still not acknowledging degrees and stages here when you do everywhere else?

Coming from Mr. “there’s more, there’s more!”, this is an uncharacteristically unnuanced and absolute stance.

agree to disagree then ??‍♂️

[Leo Gura]

@Display_Name Just because there's more does not preclude stupid beliefs.

Jed McKenna believes the moon landing was a conspiracy theory. As but one example.

If you sit down and question an enlightened person long enough, you will encounter some dumb ideas.

[tuckerwphotography]

15 hours ago, electroBeam said:

Same with other teachers. Like adyshanti and sadhuguru and matt khan. 

Adya has spoken about his lack of belief that human consciousness is evolving, which I find interesting and wonder if he's familiar with SD and if so how he feels about. He also seems more actively outspoken on social justice issues, more so than most modern enlightened teachers. Would he be considered stage Turquoise, or could he be an example of an enlightened person whose cultural meme is more at stage Green or Yellow? 

^ Never mind, I see how I was confused. 

Edited August 12, 2020 by tuckerwphotography

[Forestluv]

6 hours ago, Display_Name said:

If people are still subscribing to beliefs like they are True, they’re not fully (FULLY) enlightened. 

By your own definition, you are unenlightened.

How can a mind define that which it does not know?

[Adam M]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

No

We have to be careful not to muddle things up. They are very different systems.

Said in response to @Max_V's question:

"@Leo Gura Do you think there is overlap in the chakra system and SD? For example, Stage Yellow spirituality would be more manifested and centered in the third-eye, and Stage Turquoise spirituality moves towards crown, etc. "

 

 

Wilber loosely equates the chakra/rungs with stages of development in The Religion of Tomorrow...

He equates:
 

Beige: Root/Sensorimotor

Purple: Sacral/Belongingness/Safety

Red: Solar Plexus/Guts/Directed Movement

Blue: Heart/Family + Inclusivity/Higher Purpose (although clearly limited...I'm not sure about this one)

Orange/Green: Throat/ Self-Expression + Activism

Yellow/Turquoise: Third Eye/Vision-Logic

Turquoise + Beyond: Crown/Mystical Union

 

Although I see that there is not a DIRECT correlation between these systems, there is a rough correlation of traits that are expressed during the movement from lower to higher consciousness.

We should be careful when trying to integrate these models together and remember that they are loosely related, but not directly. The same is true with Maslow's hierarchy...

Edited August 11, 2020 by Adam M

[Display_Name]

3 hours ago, Forestluv said:

By your own definition, you are unenlightened.

How can a mind define that which it does not know?

We’re speculating in the relative, smartypants

Edited August 11, 2020 by Display_Name

[Forestluv]

12 minutes ago, Display_Name said:

We’re opinion-ing and speculating in the relative, smartypants

To me, it doesn’t seem like you have a curious, speculative mindset. You seem to be speaking as if you believe your ‘speculations’ are true.

You call out others for subscribing to beliefs like they are True, yet you don’t seem to see yourself as subscribing to beliefs as if they are True. 

If everything you have written in this thread is merely speculation about something you don’t know, would that change the context for you?

[Heaven]

Consciousness has no preference. Neither good nor bad. Awakening to Truth includes transcendence of all concepts in reality(and of course this is just another concept).

It’s indescribable. Only direct experience will do “justice” to It.

[Display_Name]

10 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

To me, it doesn’t seem like you have a curious, speculative mindset. You seem to be speaking as if you believe your ‘speculations’ are true.

You call out others for subscribing to beliefs like they are True, yet you don’t seem to see yourself as subscribing to beliefs as if they are True. 

If everything you have written in this thread is merely speculation about something you don’t know, would that change the context for you?

hey, why am only I called out :=(

[Forestluv]

Just now, Display_Name said:

hey, why am only I called out :=(

It’s not just you. I point this dynamic out a lot. It’s a common mental dynamic and appears in my mind as well.  

[DrewNows]

10 hours ago, Display_Name said:

Enlightened people can continue to do stupid shit, the question is if they subscribe truth to their stupid shit or not.

Actually most wise people recognize there’s many degrees to truth when it comes to perceptions beliefs and reality. Leo is quite the realist and will see many out of the park ideas/beliefs as being stupid, silly or dumb. It’s simply a primal tendency...

Beliefs are inherently true and false, it’s the principle of polarity in energy 

[Lyubov]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This is the classic newbie mistake of over-idealizing enlightenment and gurus.

Enlightenment is NOT moral perfection. Nor is it a sophisticated understanding of worldly affairs. Nor is it a guarantee against errors in knowledge.

this could make for an interesting examples thread

 

[Carl-Richard]

On 10.8.2020 at 10:50 AM, electroBeam said:

And spiral wizardry isn't that useful to spiritual work anyway.

They might not be completely congruent, but they're still somewhat meaningfully interdependent. The lasting states of openmindedness that you acquire from awakening experiences can make you more prone to some aspects of SD development, but of course it works more like a chemical catalyst to pre-existing chemical reactions. SD is about adding new types and larger quantities of chemicals. Spiritual work primarily upgrades the computer hardware (makes it run smoother), while SD development upgrades the software (adding new types of content).

[Display_Name]

15 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

It’s not just you. I point this dynamic out a lot. It’s a common mental dynamic and appears in my mind as well.  

For sure, and I appreciate the check. I’d say by nature of typing away on a discussion forum we’re “shooting the shit”. Disclaimers should be redundant, no?

For fun, here’s my perspective:

What I wanted to express: calling for more nuance and agreement on the term “enlightenment” for the benefit of fruitful discussion on this topic. Landed in the void.

What I get: Leo singleing out one-liners with a hard “That is wrong.”, and then you swooping in with the consciousness high ground of pointing out inevitable paradox and hypocrisy, again on a one-liner. I think atleast put some skin in the game and contribute with your own opinion, that’s only fair  Or take what I say a bit more holistically.

My response in the future to avoid this predicament:

“four pounds of flax!“

[Forestluv]

45 minutes ago, Display_Name said:

I’d say by nature of typing away on a discussion forum we’re “shooting the shit”. Disclaimers should be redundant, no?

I would say there is also underlying attachment and identification to beliefs.

Imagine we were discussing what alien life in a far away galaxy might be like. Since we are just speculating, I would hold ideas loosely - especially if I’ve never been to this galaxy and have never met the aliens.

For me, disclaimers are a surface level. I can say “This is just my opinion” and still be attached to the beliefs as if they were true. I’m then much more likely to get into debate mode in which my ‘speculations’ are more righteous. 

[electroBeam]

6 hours ago, tuckerwphotography said:

Adya has spoken about his lack of belief that human consciousness is evolving, which I find interesting and wonder if he's familiar with SD and if so how he feels about. He also seems more actively outspoken on social justice issues, more so than most modern enlightened teachers. Would he be considered stage Turquoise, or could he be an example of an enlightened person whose cultural meme is more at stage Green or Yellow? 

he's exactly right. He's just speaking absolutely. 

56 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

They might not be completely congruent, but they're still somewhat meaningfully interdependent. The lasting states of openmindedness that you acquire from awakening experiences can make you more prone to some aspects of SD development, but of course it works more like a chemical catalyst to pre-existing chemical reactions. SD is about adding new types and larger quantities of chemicals. Spiritual work primarily upgrades the computer hardware (makes it run smoother), while SD development upgrades the software (adding new types of content).

It does but its equivelant to using a hammer to cut a piece of wood. If you're into consciousness work, there's almost no point in toying with spiral dynamics. Its much more useful for healing society. 

[Carl-Richard]

18 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

If you're into consciousness work, there's almost no point in toying with spiral dynamics.

That might be true, but maybe the other way around.

[tuckerwphotography]

@electroBeam Do you mind clarifying? The context in which he said it was in reaction to people like Eckhart Tolle, Ken Wilbur and others who claim that humanity is on the verge of a massive shift in consciousness. He was saying that he doesn't share this commonly held view amongst spiritual leaders and said that there's just as much evidence that humanity's consciousness has only devolved, which is certainly a clash with SD. 

1 hour ago, electroBeam said:

he's exactly right. He's just speaking absolutely.