Don't Excuse Leo's Problematic Floyd Opinions

[AtheisticNonduality]

@Moreira

 

 

[Depersonilized]

@dyslexicCnut You need to recognize that your opinion is coming from a green-biased place. Instead of being judgemental about Leo's opinion here, take the time to understand, from a non-biased place, why he would say that. You need to understand that it is just a different opinion. There's nothing "bad" about it. There also nothing "bad" about your opinion here either. Peace, my man. 

[Carl-Richard]

6 hours ago, dyslexicCnut said:

We've only seen Floyd's behavior while his mental state was compromised to a foreign substance, so exactly what substantive basis could Leo possibly have for callously casting him into an unflattering "stage red" category?

When you're dealing with a person who is high on opiates, screaming incoherently and resisting arrest, you're absolutely dealing with a stage red person, both inside and also most probably outside the context of that moment. I'm also not necessarily agreeing with the overall conduct of the cops when I say this, but why should the cops care about what he is like at his best when they would never have to deal with him in that case?

[Carl-Richard]

5 hours ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

 

 

Is this really green or just blue? This is 1980s Japan we're talking about.

Edited August 7, 2020 by Carl-Richard

[FlowerNote]

@dyslexicCnut you are right, its very problematic Leo said this. Leo even labeled him as a criminal when there was an alledged check fraud. Thats not the type of criminal you should draw your gun at within 10 seconds. Do you think Jordan Belfort would have been treated the same way? (Millionaire fraudster) 

I dont think Leo said these things with bad intent but he is obviously extremely deluded when talking about this topic. 

[FlowerNote]

19 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You think you're being smart when really you're just acting out self-biases of your mind and not self-reflecting.

All your political opinions and attachments are stemming from the ego-mind. Be mindful of that.

You’re saying it like this doesn’t also apply to you. Of course it does, leaving this argument to be completely void and off-topic. 

[Roy]

Regardless of his opinions on this specifically, more broadly I think it's disappointing Leo has steered Actualized.Org in the directions of politics so damn heavily instead of remaining and going deeper on actual practical personal development. It's like nobody can help themselves these days as content creators but to shout their opinions if the platform is there. Perhaps a subtle marketing move to draw in more subscribers in a time when things like this are hard to ignore? Who knows.

Anyways this domain is so toxic and monkey minded it would be wise to steer clear and leave it separate from the domain of spirituality and trying to live a good life, especially during these times when it serves as such an easy and deep distraction.

Now he'll probably come in here and predictably say, "oh but it's very applicable to personal development, you are apart of a community you have an obligation to yada yada yada............."

True, but that doesn't make my point any less true either. Politics are about the collective, we are here as individuals doing personal development. We are here to better ourselves to serve as beacons of light in the world.

If I want to read or hear about fucking politics I can go to one of the other 10 million channels that exist. I have higher expectations for this place and I'm sure others do to.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Roy

[Apparition of Jack]

@Roy Hard to do personal development when you’re in jail for dissent or are stuck in cyclical poverty because crucial social services are unfunded. 

[Roy]

1 minute ago, Apparition of Jack said:

Hard to do personal development when you’re in jail for dissent or are stuck in cyclical poverty because crucial social services are unfunded. 

What's your point? What do you want everyone to do, become political advocates?

[Epikur]

@Roy

If you can't handle the heat don't go to the kitchen. There are many safe spaces in the forum and out of it.

[Apparition of Jack]

@Roy what would be wrong with that?

[Amandine]

Disclaimer: all the below is my own biased limited view-point of course.

I'll always be on the side of the underdog, even whilst keeping open-minded and seeing different sides of the situation.

I like with what Dr. Todd Grande has to say (I recommend checking out his videos, he analyses the personalities and mental states of various public figures involved in well-known cases).

He believes Chauvin has the Four “Dark Personality” Traits (4 tetrad), namely psychopath, narcissist, Machiavellian, and sadist (altho' he admits the machiavellian part is not apparent), and explains why he thinks Chauvin is guilty of 1st Degree Murder. Amen.

I've looked at everything Leo has written about the case and I don't see anything that could be said to be necessarily "untrue" or non-sensical in itself, and I believe he realistically understands quite well the grassroots level of things on a politico-social level.

But I was disappointed at the stance he took in the significant historical context of this one, seemingly spending an inordinate amount of time "justifying" the murder and explaining the tough cop work and underfunded resources than showing any sorrow for an actual human life taken away flagrant delit by a cop conscious he was being filmed for the whole world to see as though that human life had no value, cold-bloodedly murdered in broad daylight ... because he knew he could ... and get away with it. This is an important point. Like hey, who's gonna bat an eyelid? Plenty of folk'll sympathize with me offing the crazy dude, black lives don't matter, perps scum don't matter, I mean hey, look what I've gotta put up with? Being "part of the problem" actually entails falling for this bait, Chauvin is counting on us (and our prejudices) to justify his murder as the video circulates internationally. Bad calculation on his behalf! So, in this context, no way am I going to excuse Leo's "problematic opinions". For me, him and his ilk are "part of the problem", aka white privilege.

I watched the video in May and felt angry and cried over the scene, then came on this forum and the first thing I see from Leo is "police work is hard", followed by "police brutality is just love" and "policing assholes is difficult" (I'll spare you the rest), which made me even more angry. In my rage, I wrote a barrage of F-words, which were swiftly deleted by the mods who warned me to "take a chill pill". Came back when the mods "were out" and attacked Leo with a string of silly belligerent limericks, which I later deleted after doing some personal work, and realising they were more to do with my own personal projections of anger, which I would be well to deal with through some self-analysis. Personal responsability and all that.

When other influencers on social media were using their platforms for the Black Lives Matter message in this historical moment in time in order to herald all-important change and better opportunities for blacks, (and we suddenly saw great things happening everywhere, like racist people being abruptly fired from jobs, etc) Leo didn't use that opportunity. On the contrary, his rhetoric was sounding more and more Trump-like with its lack of emotion, compassion and humanity, not a word of empathy for Floyd or the black movement, no Blackout Tuesday on this forum lol. Leo should have been invited to the Oval Office, he'd have had a great bonding conversation with the president. Sorry Leo, you must cringe reading that, but I just can't help imagining Trump loving what you'd have to say, you'd be his n°1 BFF for sure.

I believe Leo has put himself in the cops' shoes, but nothing yet indicates to me that he's put himself in Floyd's shoes (or a black's, or a criminal's shoes). Surely merely for credibility's sake, you would do that if you want to present an unbiased perspective. 

I know if I were Leo, responsable for an influential platform, I wouldn't have leaned so heavily on sympathizing with the "system" but would have definitely had some compassionate words for Floyd and his plight and would have done my upmost to express my outrage and been part of the so-important movement. I haven't even seen any empathy for Floyd (and "his like") on Leo's behalf, which is a shame to me. Why not, I wonder? 

After all, he doesn't hold back on Trump (hasn't he called him a "narcissist sociopath"?). Why not give Trump the same privilege as Chauvin. After all, Trump's surely got a tough job too (like Chauvin), he's only got a huge country to govern lol. It's strange to me, Leo can run down Trump, but he "protects" Chauvin, albeit subtly and indirectly .

I'm all for providing alternative ways of viewing things in a more balanced way, but c'mon man.

A bit of heart in this cold, cruel world. Gotta be a human before attempting Superhuman (or God lol).

But hey we know Leo's all about radically maverick and non-conformist opinions and helping people open their minds and see different perspectives, so what he said was to be expected I suppose.

I have a lot of deep respect for Leo, I love him, he really is an awesome guy (if he didn't exist, you'd have to invent him), but this is my last message and my last visit on this forum in solidarity to Floyd among other things, cos the head honcho let me down badly on this one. I know what it's like from personal experience to be the helpless outraged bystander in a matter-of-life-and-death situation screaming at the sadist not to kill someone and be "threatened with pepper spray" if I utter another sound, I've been there, so this is a personal thing linked to my own personal trauma and probably less really to do with Leo. So yeah inexcusable, gotta agree. Sorry I haven't expressed myself that well in all this, I'm still a work in progress lol, but something's really got stuck in my throat concerning Leo's Floyd opinions. Again all this is just my own personal biased and emotional reaction. I hate with a vengeance cowardly bullies like Chauvin and will always stand up to them. 

Sincerely wish you all the very best tho' and thank you for all the rest.

Turn anger to action #RIPFloyd #november votes #blacklives matter duh

Edited August 8, 2020 by Amandine

[Jennjenn]

1 hour ago, Amandine said:

A bit of heart in this cold, cruel world. Gotta be a human before attempting Superhuman (or God lol).

This is exactly what I think. 
too much of “it is what it is” and “He had it coming”. No compassion and. complete avoidance of the fact that Chauvin is a racist with a history of domestic violence. 

It feels like Leo is lucking down at us and analyzing things from above too much, that it comes across as condescending and patronizing with zero humanity and compassion. 
 

Now I get why so many racist and trumpsters are attracted to this forum. Is that side of Leo that brings them in. 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Jennjenn

[Roy]

10 hours ago, Epikur said:

If you can't handle the heat don't go to the kitchen. There are many safe spaces in the forum and out of it.

God stop cucking for Leo so hard before he gets your girlfriend pregnant. You know what I mean. He is facilitating a space for more of this nonsense, obviously only a ridiculously small % of people are going to use it in a pure way, so why insist on making a mudpit for pigs inside a mansion? I guess I shouldn't expect too much from idiot Americans.

10 hours ago, Apparition of Jack said:

what would be wrong with that?

Nothing "wrong" with that. It's just;

1. Everyone here is already socialist/left leaning and voting consciously. Unless of course you have cognitive dissonance or a rebellious streak like some seem to have here. But they'll be referenced in point 3.

2. One vote is only ever one vote. No matter how loudly you scream about it or how often you talk about it. In the end all you end up doing is walking to the ballot box and checking a piece of paper. Everything else is diminishing returns. Why? See point 3.

3. You aren't going to change peoples mind or convince them to vote "socialist" or whatever way you might deem "proper" or "conscious". Especially not those people in the second half of point 1. People's minds are changed by either going through the suffering of having voted for the wrong thing, or through personal development (like what we should be doing here, not this) and realizing with enough growth that their political support should go towards policies and parties that represent peace and inclusivity.

I guess I'll also add on that simply not everybody has time to shill for a party.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Roy

[w4read]

@Roy This discussion has come up so many times and the conclusion is and has always been: Use the forum for what you find valuable and leave the rest. If you only care about self actualization, then why would you care if other people are "wasting their time" on the political subforum? I mean it's "personal development" which means that it should only be about yourself and no one else..

[dyslexicCnut]

12 hours ago, Roy said:

If I want to read or hear about fucking politics I can go to one of the other 10 million channels that exist. I have higher expectations for this place and I'm sure others do to.

"I'm sick of all the politics", the boy angrily declares, unwittingly in a specifically political subforum.
Imagine going to a hospital just to bemoan the sight of sick people. To your credit, you'll have no trouble with this mental exercise given how closely your mindset already conforms to this lunacy @Roy.

@Apparition of Jack @FlowerNote I'm glad that not everyone here is haplessly contributing to the increasingly necessary verbal precision needed to navigate this onslaught of inane drivel. We really have our work cut out for us.

On 8/7/2020 at 6:16 AM, Heart of Space said:

Nothing wrong with alternate perspectives.  If you honestly look at them you'll find multiple true ways if looking at it.  It's just that this perspective tends to trigger you.

I'm starting to think the main reason to pursue "spiritual enlightenment" is just to relish the riddance of my persistent cringe that will unavoidably come about whenever another radical centrist tries to convince me that fascism and utilitarianism are merely "alternate perspectives". Nazism and Buddhism are just two sides of the same coin I suppose? 

On 8/7/2020 at 5:21 AM, Opo said:

He moved his right hand out of sight if he grabbed a gun and the cop stood there looking at him with his kind eyes George could kill him in a second. The cop did the right thing there later he fucked up but u dont understand what are humans capable of. Cops can be nice only when they are safe. 

Correction: He did not "move his right hand out of sight". His arm never moved away from the officer's perspective. It's more accurate to say that his panicked attempt at cooperation did not appear to fully present his right hand. I find it suspicious that you would mischaracterize this straight-forward footage in favor of the murderous officers. It's dismally fitting that you have deferred to Chauvin's safety before Floyd's.

If "Cops can be nice only when they are safe" why not say "People can only reasonably cooperate when the are safe". In what world would you consider him reasonably safe as a disconcerted black man being accosted by legally protected, gun brandishing thugs?

On 8/7/2020 at 10:55 AM, Carl-Richard said:

When you're dealing with a person who is high on opiates, screaming incoherently and resisting arrest, you're absolutely dealing with a stage red person, both inside and also most probably outside the context of that moment. 

It's not difficult for me (at "stage green" according to this flimsy colors model) to conjure a sequence of unlikely events that would lead me into a superficially similar situation as Floyd. Discombobulated, in a panic, and only cooperative with police to the extent that my compromised mental state will allow. Would that make me an "absolute" stage red for succumbing to my less favorable instincts during a rare lapse in judgement? In your mind it would, so it's safe to say we can rationally dismiss perspectives aligned with what you've submitted.

On 8/7/2020 at 10:55 AM, Carl-Richard said:

why should the cops care about what he is like at his best when they would never have to deal with him in that case?

You won't find anyone saying officers need to fully surrender to dangerous situations. You'll only find progressives pointing out the prejudiced basis for which standard situations are falsely deemed dangerous due to unfair social judgements. You'll also struggle to convince me that you're even remotely open to the possibility that you may have unfairly applied your prejudices to Floyd. Same applies to you, @Opo.

7 hours ago, Amandine said:

I have a lot of deep respect for Leo, I love him, he really is an awesome guy (if he didn't exist, you'd have to invent him), but this is my last message and my last visit on this forum in solidarity to Floyd among other things, cos the head honcho let me down badly on this one. I know what it's like from personal experience to be the helpless outraged bystander in a matter-of-life-and-death situation screaming at the sadist not to kill someone and be "threatened with pepper spray" if I utter another sound, I've been there, so this is a personal thing linked to my own personal trauma and probably less really to do with Leo. So yeah inexcusable, gotta agree.

I sympathize with this reaction. 

@Jennjenn It is not exactly my intent to turn people away from Leo, I just want to point out some failures in his political approach, and to strongly discourage people on the fence towards lending merit to problematic views from foolishly doing so.

2 hours ago, Roy said:

God stop cucking for Leo so hard before he gets your girlfriend pregnant.

@Roy Someone's a bit upset. I can only imagine the impending rage when you realize you're actually in a subforum specifically devoted to politics. How amusing. Like a pouting toddler moaning in disgust at how wet the bathwater is.

2 hours ago, Roy said:

I guess I'll also add on that simply not everybody has time to shill for a party.

The lack of self awareness has me in fucking stitches, aha.

The pouting boy proudly declares his superior lack of immersion in the world of clichéd politics while himself immersed in a heated exchange on the basis of politics. Imagine being so dense as to consider oneself above political discourse, yet simultaneously resorting to far pettier discourse on the basis of politics.

It's as if Actualized.org hired a virtual court jester for entertainment. 10/10 comic relief.

[Roy]

Imagine being as deluded as a breadtuber thinking you're having an impact.

Imagine thinking 45+ year old voters will suddenly conform to new views because of condescending 25 year olds yelling into a camera or making a 500 word blog post.

Imagine being insufferable and edgy enough to use the Anarchy logo with gender symbols in it as your profile pic lol. Oh wait you don't.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Roy

[dyslexicCnut]

@RoyIt's understandable being too embarrassed to address the actual substance of what was said to you, but the idea that people are only motivated to "make a difference" is beyond stupid. For instance, you were egotistically compelled to muster this half-witted quip attempt, not because you're going to change my mind, but because the likeness of those who disagree is an affront to your petty ego, so you engaged, as have I. You're not doing anything differently, you just come off as an insecure 8th grader.

Edit: Aha, damn I really struck a nerve. Got him going back adding videos of laughter and shit. I remember when I used to think anarchism was just an edgy pipe-dream. Any academic will correct your misconception and point out anarchism is merely a broad intent to dismantle unjust hierarchies. Ignorance sure is bliss, huh. 

Edited August 8, 2020 by dyslexicCnut

[Heart of Space]

1 hour ago, dyslexicCnut said:

I'm starting to think the main reason to pursue "spiritual enlightenment" is just to relish the riddance of my persistent cringe that will unavoidably come about whenever another radical centrist tries to convince me that fascism and utilitarianism are merely "alternate perspectives". Nazism and Buddhism are just two sides of the same coin I suppose? 

The problem with your thinking, and green thinking in general, is that it looks at everything as a result of a greater context.  

When people constantly attribute bad things in their life to external variables that are mostly out of their control how would you expect them to ever take responsibility to change their situation themselves?  

The main point is that if Floyd's behavior and psychological state when interacting with the police was different, there is a good chance he'd still be a live.  So, in that sense he played a big role in creating the situation that ultimately led to his death.  That is not only a valid perspective, but one that you ignore so that you can believe the more emotionally rewarding one where everything bad that happens to you is the worlds fault.  

Quote

It's important to keep in mind that there is a greater socioeconomic context and history of oppression, which this particular event symbolizes.  Sure I agree, it's not pure example of a  cold blooded murder.  George Floyd was murdered though, just not specifically by Derek Chauvin.  He was murdered by the complex multi-generational oppressive environment that produced him, his behaviors, and his psychological state when interacting with police.  

^ Also know that I posted this in the previous thread.  

Edited August 8, 2020 by Heart of Space

[Opo]

@dyslexicCnut "Correction: He did not "move his right hand out of sight". His arm never moved away from the officer's perspective. It's more accurate to say that his panicked attempt at cooperation did not appear to fully present his right hand. I find it suspicious that you would mischaracterize this straight-forward footage in favor of the murderous officers. It's dismally fitting that you have deferred to Chauvin's safety before Floyd's."

Yea i was refering to the later point in the video in the beginning he didn't even show his hand. It dosent matter if you are too stupid or scared to do it at that moment you are a possible treat to the cop and he did the right thing by pulling out his gun. He didn't shoot him because he was black but he did what was needed to stay safe. 

U dont understand how guns work and how easy it could be for someone to kill a cop on that situation. 

Try expanding your empathy to everyone in that video otherwise this is pointless. Because right now you only care about George and you aren't able to be objective.