Med school - to quit or not to quit?

[BroccoliSalad]

Hello everyone,

I'm a 24 year old female from Germany. I've been watching Leo's content for years now. I also purchased his life purpose course, which I took last summer before starting medical school. I'm posting this because I'm currently really stuck and I'm extremely overwhelmed by having to make a decision on whether to quit or not to quit medical school. I guess I should clarify some key things and give you guys some information on where I'm coming from first:

- I have luckily not accumulated any student loans, as medical school (and attending university in general) is free in my country.

- I am what some might call a non-traditional medical student, as I actually did my A-levels (Abitur) at a night school for adults last year in order to go to medical school.

- There is no undergraduate degree or MCAT required to apply to medical school in Germany but you do need to pass your A-levels with very competitive results in order to gain acceptance. However, there are no specific subject requirements, which means that you can get into medical school without a solid background in the hard sciences, which is what I did (My AP classes were English, educational science, German and biology). I didn't take chemistry or physics during night school because I dropped these subjects as soon as I could. I don't like the hard sciences and I never had any interest in them. 

This last point brings me straight to the core problem that I have: I think I chose medicine for the wrong reasons. I am here to get to the bottom of this as much and as quickly as possible but it's probably going to take a bit of explaining in order to get there. I am grateful for anyone willing to read this to the end.

As stated above, I have been listening to Leo's content for a long time. I do know what my signature strengths and my core values are. For those familiar with the concepts, I ironically seem to be strongest in the strategic thinking domain and creativity and judgement are generally my strong points. My most important values in life are wisdom, self expression and personal growth. If I had all the money in the world I would live in Malibu and I would read and write fiction and non-fiction books on psychology/society/spirituality related subjects. I started medical school with primarily extrinsic motives, such as hopes of increasing my social status, financial security and getting a residency spot in the United States and then being able to emigrate (living and working in California is my life goal and has been for years). I think I basically chose medicine as a tool for potentially getting a visa and to get financially independent enough to move to California. This must make me sound like a complete idiot. I of course also had some more legitimate reasons for pursuing medicine. I actually envisioned myself becoming an outpatient psychiatrist (this is by far the only medical specialty I can imagine pursuing as a career) specializing in psychosomatic medicine and eventually opening up a private psychotherapy/life coaching and nutrition counseling  (I'm vegan and I believe in the power of diet as the single most effective preventative tool and therapy for most diseases of civilization) practice in Los Angeles.  I also would write books on psychology/psychiatry/nutrition related topics. It actually sounds so damn good and this career (the outcome) is in absolute alignment with my interests, strengths, values and goals in life. But the journey towards this outcome is beyond painful and there is nothing that makes me enjoy it. I despise gross anatomy (except for maybe neuroanatomy), histology, embryology and most of the other subjects. I feel like I hate the medical school part completely and I'm constantly feeling like an imposter that's in it for the wrong reasons. It's also hard to motivate myself to study all of those dry subjects. It's only the prospect of becoming a psychiatrist that got me here. But I have some problems with the job of a psychiatrist as well. I actually do not believe in giving people pills to manage or cure their "chemical imbalances". I believe in coaching people in a holistic way that incorporates diet, exercise and change in behavior. I also feel like I would have missed out on virtually all (!) of the important theoretical concepts and research in the field of psychology (especially developmental and personality psychology) in order to best help and serve my patients. And I think that research skills and access to the world of psychological research are really (!) important because I've of course read a lot of books and they have often left me with more questions then I had started with and they come with so much contradictory advice. Even Leo's advive I sometimes find very contradictory. Although reading books like "So good they can't ignore you" by Cal Newport gave me some great perspective on my situation, I feel like the core message of "just choose something worth mastering, hit it hard every day for decades, become an expert at it and the passion will follow" contradicts so many other concepts Leo is referring to. Can I really just choose the thing that will give me the *rewards* I want in exchange of the accumulated career capital I will then have, regardless of the fact that my signature strengths and interests might not be in alignment with the *path* to get there? How does this not contradict the concept of intrinsic motivation, for example? I hope I got my point across. I just want to know the truth before I give someone advice as a counselor/therapist and I feel like I need to be a psychologist rather than a psychiatrist in order to do so. 

 

The only real alternative to continuing medical school I can see for myself is switching to a psychology/psychotherapy program. In Germany, you do not need a PhD in psychology in order to become a fully licensed clinical or counseling psychologist. You complete a five year university degree (bachelor's and master's in psychology), after which you pass a board exam to become licensed as a psychological psychotherapist. You then apply for a residency position called "psychotherapist in training" in a psychiatric and/or psychosomatic clinic in order to gain experience.  After five years of residency, during which you work full-time and already make a psychologist's salary, you then finally become a fully licensed therapist authorized to practice independently.  All I can say is that I would probably love and excel in all of my classes, as psychology is my true jam and I am also certain that I can make it through "the dip" (absolutely loved the book "The Dip" by Seth Godin!) and actually graduate, which I unfortunately cannot claim in regard to medical school. The things I hate about this option are that I would be stuck in Germany/Europe since this degree wouldn't be transferrable to California (I would have to do go back  to school and get a PhD in clinical psychology in the USA, which is basically impossible to attain as a foreign student). I also actually cannot imagine not being able to live in California someday. I also unfortunately wouldn't be able to offer nutrition counseling to treat my patients in a holistic way because I would be "just a psychologist" and not a medical doctor/psychiatrist who can offer it along therapy. Another negative point would be bad compensation. Although I do realize that you can turn any domain into a lot of money (if you're truly extraordinary), psychologists earn on average about $165,000k less anually than psychiatrists. This is true even with quite similar educational investments and qualifications. 

I must also add that I do actually have family in California, my dad has been a (naturalized) U.S citizen since 2013. He and his wife are both registered nurses in the L.A. area and they are doing well, at least financially. They are always telling me to stay in medical school and that if I was to make the switch to psychology, I would never get the opportunity to come to the U.S. My dad especially thinks that psychology is "useless" compared to medicine and that I should just "stick it out" . He doesn't want to support me on my journey to California if I get a psychology degree and I actually want to make sure to be independent from anyone as much as possible. This is why I want a degree that will enable me to get a visa. 

 

I know this was a lot of information and I hope that it makes sense. I have about a month left to make my final decision on whether to quit or to stay. 

[Michael569]

It seems like you went into medicine for the wrong reason. Unless you have a deep conviction inside that this is what you want to do and that you are absolutely convinced that treating people using evidence-based medicine is the way for you, then medicine is not the right direction. I am saying this because the study is extremely tough. Medicine is probably one of the hardest industries. Also, from your writing I can see you would possibly fare better in the holistic area of healing such as naturopathy, Chinese medicine, herbal medicine etc. The medical schools are NOT designed to teach you about holistic medicine, you will, in fact, be discouraged to follow these protocols and the 100% focus is on using pharmaceuticals unless you go into emergency medicine (this is the most rewarding but also the most stressful are of medicine) or obstetrics (probably even there you'll be using lots of drugs). Psychiatric medicine is the same, but you already know about this. It uses cooki-cutter approach treating everything with manipulating brain chemistry. I think you are just too conscious already to be in western medicine and I can imagine you becoming a more green/yellow type of professional. 

Also bear in mind that having a medical degree does not allow you to call yourself "doctor" if you practice holistic medicine. At least not in UK where I live as this creates confusion. 

Additionally, in the US , Naturopathic Doctors are becoming popular and if I was in US this is what I would have gone for instead of naturopathic nutrition. So maybe see if you can figure out another way to get in States and you could potentially consider Naturopathic studies. There are several universities such as Bastyr University who are very popular for these sorts of programmes. 

Whatever you decide to do, make sure your heart, not just the brain agree otherwise it will be a great struggle for you. At the same time, if medicine seems like the right way to go despite everything else, you should go do that Only you know the answer

 

 

[Space]

@BroccoliSalad It's quite simple. Work out what you actually really want out of life. Be extremely specific. And then make changes and plans toward that goal - and actually take the action. If you don't know what you want, then start with working out what you really don't want. 

Tip for writing posts: if you want people to give you advice, don't write massive block paragraphs.

[Leo Gura]

@BroccoliSalad What would you do for work if you had $100 million dollars?

Do that now.

[docs20]

I've been in a very similar situations as med student.

The thing is that is so easy to get depressed the first years of medical school, but then it gets way more practical and close to really helping people and you have more clinical exams, which are a bit less hard and more interesting cause they're more related to day-to-day cases (most of the time). I'd consider that as well in evaluating your choice. As pychiatrist with the other things that you like you'll really crush it, and become really good at it, and you'll probably have an higher income than a psychologist and more chances to use also conventional pharmaceutical therapy in many cases where, despite what you read or not (I talk by direct experience) is very much necessary, because there are so many patients with whom other therapies like for example psychoteraphy just work after you get a decent chemistry in their brain that they're able to function even just to hear you talking about nutrition and other things.

But I really get you, medical school is such an hard path, which takes lots of conscientiousness and hard work.


If you have any questions regarding the medicine world in Europe, I'm glad to help

Edited August 13, 2020 by docs20

[blankisomeone]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@BroccoliSalad What would you do for work if you had $100 million dollars?

Do that now.

I wouldn’t work?

[universe]

16 hours ago, blankisomeone said:

I wouldn’t work?

 

 

[lostmedstudent]

@BroccoliSalad Hey thank you for sharing your story. I resonated with so many of the things you said partly because i was in the same boat of indecision when i was in medical school (in canada), not knowing what i want and feeling like my life is heading into an unknown/wrong direction. I have always had the dream of going to california as well, but never even had the guts to actualize it.  So kudos to you for having a clear vision of your future!

I had a lot of parental pressure, and given the promising job / salary / socio-economic prospect that becoming a doctor offers, i decided to continue and i have now graduated. I wanted to become a psychiatrist as well, but things did not turn out the way i wanted and i am now a family doctor. I can't say i regretted not dropping out, but i cannot say this is the life i want either. However, i am in a very fortunate position because i am financially independent and i can afford taking time and a step back to re-evaluate my life. 

I think you already know a lot more about what you wanted than i did when i was in medical school. in the end of the day, no one can tell you what to do. you just have to follow your heart. My advice would be, can you somehow move to California FIRST with your dad, then figure things out from there? It sounds like the easiest way, especially when your dad is a citizen and has settled in USA. you'd at least be in your dream location. 

The thing about medical school and becoming a psychiatrist is that its so time consuming (4 years of medical school + 5 years of residency). are you willing to wait 4+ years to find out whether you even have a chance of going to the US for residency? iF you don't match to a USA residency (which is highly possible), or if you don't match into psychiatry, what will you do? from what you wrote, it seems that you have a lot of options ahead of you in terms of career (not limited to medicine), but moving to California seems like a bigger back ground goal. 

Given your interests in more creative things and mainly psychotherapy, i would say medical school is somewhat closing the doors for you, as you are way more likely to build your dream career going through another route (psychotherapy, researcher, psychologist etc). Although medical school might give you an advantage in terms of visa, but we are talking 4 + years from now, so many things can happen in that time frame. 

Not to discourage you from medical school either, because if you keep an open mind, medical school can open you up to new career prospects you never considered before. You might discover something you never would consider interesting before. but again, it seeems like you already have a clear notion of what you like and what you dont. Ive met colleagues in medical school who are in just so they can become psychiatrists, so its definitely not wrong to go in only for 1 specialty. 

Anyway, i think you cant go wrong if you just follow your heart good luck

[Tuan]

As Leo said, what would you do for work if you had hundred million dollar...I would add to that - what would you contribute to others if you had that money. I used to be in medical school too. I know that feeling sucks. Hope you find your way soon.

[bejapuskas]

Why does your dad call psychology useless, because it earns less? I think if you live in Germany, you are getting decent money basically no matter what your job is, why would you be afraid of you dad's judgement?  

[Hello from Russia]

1 hour ago, bejapuskas said:

Why does your dad call psychology useless, because it earns less? I think if you live in Germany, you are getting decent money basically no matter what your job is, why would you be afraid of you dad's judgement?  

Cause you gotta make twice or thrice the "decent money" to earn the Dad's approval, this is usually how it works. Parents don't want their children to be hippies earning minimum wage, which is their egotistical pov

Edited June 15, 2021 by Hello from Russia

[bejapuskas]

@Hello from Russia  Yeh I was trying to point at a less worrysome perspective one can accept for their own. Like if she was Iraqi, I would probably be speaking differently, but since she lives in Germany, where the wages are so high for almost anything you do... You can even make amazing things happen for cheap these days  No big deal for a European.

[Yarco]

I don't feel like reading 1,500 words (I don't feel like it should take that long to fully explain your situation), so I'll just give my generic opinion on quitting school...

The further you are toward completing your program, the more likely you should finish it. If you aren't halfway through, just quit. More than halfway, it's worth starting to consider finishing just for the sake of finishing and having your degree.

Skimming your post I saw lots of stuff like "beyond painful", "I despise", "I chose medicine as a tool for getting a visa", "I hate the medical school part completely". If that doesn't make it immediately obvious what the right choice is, then I don't know what will.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Yarco

[Nobody_Here]

Please don’t become a doctor for any reason besides a desire to help people. You are dealing with people’s lives. If you aren’t aligned with what you’re doing, you may not only sabotage yourself, you could possibly make a bad decision that kills someone. 

I go to a General Practitioner who has been practicing for 30 years and is aligned with what he does. He is very helpful and genuinely cares for his patients, and we can tell!

From past experience, I have learned to avoid doctors who hate what they do. One of them made a bad call that landed me in the hospital for 5 days. I’ve learned to avoid both that doctor and the hospital. I can’t afford to risk my life under the guidance of people who just don’t care. 

Move to California and become a psychologist. It’s more expensive, but at least you’ll be happy. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Nobody_Here
Grammar