Shunyamurti speaks about Psychedelics

[Kalki Avatar]

Min 7:20

 

[Osaid]

Very well explained, I think

There is an equivalent exchange happening here. You can skip years of other spiritual techniques and take psychedelics, which will instantly force upon you years of spiritual work. But, it is possible that your ego will not be able to integrate it because no ego work is required to take a dose of psychedelics. 

[Leo Gura]

@Kalki Avatar His explanation is far too simplistic. There is no evidence that the brain is able to naturally produce all of the various psychedelic molecules, of which there are 100+.

I've taken some molecules which I see no way that the brain would produce.

Just because the brain can produce some DMT (and even that still up for debate), doesn't mean it can access the 100+ other states of consciousness naturally.

By his silly logic, the human body can naturally produce Viagra because the body is able to respond to Viagra. Well, that's not how medicine works. There's thousands of molecules your body can respond to but cannot naturally produce.

Hundreds of thousands of people take psychedelics and never get brain tumors. If psychedelics caused brain tumors, they'd be a lot more common. Why doesn't Joe Rogan have a brain tumor?

[Shmurda]

What do people think about his claim that the Pyramids were essentially consciousness satellites for advanced yogis to broadcast and triangulate higher frequency consciousness across the globe? 

Anyone heard anything to this effect before? It's far out man...

[Leo Gura]

@Shmurda The problem with all such claims is that you must find a way to verify it in your direct experience, otherwise it's just a New Age religion.

[alchemizt]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Kalki Avatar His explanation is far too simplistic. There is no evidence that the brain is able to naturally produce all of the various psychedelic molecules, of which there are 100+.

I've taken some molecules which I see no way that the brain would produce.

Just because the brain can produce some DMT (and even that still up for debate), doesn't mean it can access the 100+ other states of consciousness naturally.

The receptors that the molecules bind to and are all in there though. The brain doesn't produce LSD but LSD only works cuz there are 5-HT and other receptors in your body that it can activate. Every receptor has its endogenous ligand. Synaptic plasticity means sensitivity of receptors can change too. 

[Leo Gura]

27 minutes ago, alchemizt said:

The receptors that the molecules bind to and are all in there though.

So what?

That's like saying my head is a receptor for a hat. That doesn't mean my head will produce a hat come winter time.

[Carl-Richard]

39 minutes ago, alchemizt said:

The receptors that the molecules bind to and are all in there though. The brain doesn't produce LSD but LSD only works cuz there are 5-HT and other receptors in your body that it can activate. Every receptor has its endogenous ligand. Synaptic plasticity means sensitivity of receptors can change too. 

The argument ignores many nuances, like the different combinations of receptors and unique patterns of activation of each substance, the intensity of the activation relative to the rest of the brain, that it creates a drastic disequilibrium in the chemical environment etc.. It's really just a clever form for reductionism.

You can't really say anything else than that it changes brain activity in a very specific way. You can use the analogy of software vs. hardware. The "it's just receptors" argument is essentially like saying that there is no point in installing different types of software on your computer, because you can just produce the software yourself from scratch. It's a bit... lets say optimistic.

The hypothesis that McKenna got his brain tumor from psychedelics is also highly questionable. He took psychedelics very infrequently (around half a year between each trip).

Edited August 3, 2020 by Carl-Richard

[Lyubov]

He does make a good point though that I think is better worded for many people through holistic, transpersonal and trauma informed, Psychedelic  informed psychology, etc. Taking too much psychedelics can cause a skewing of sorts and cause someone to lose their reference point and grounding. What follows is delusion, mental illness and often times emotional problems until it is grounded out. 

Edited August 3, 2020 by Lyubov

[kagaria]

I want to ask him his opinion of why tumors appear in some people like Maharshi

[Carl-Richard]

13 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

He does make a good point though that I think is better worded for many people through holistic, transpersonal and trauma informed, Psychedelic  informed psychology, etc. Taking too much psychedelics can cause a skewing of sorts and cause someone to lose their reference point and grounding. What follows is delusion, mental illness and often times emotional problems until it is grounded out. 

There is validity to the idea that it can be very destablizing and intense, but that is exactly arguing in favor of the fact that it's a vastly different experience than what your brain is used to and that it's not reducible to mere "receptors". Every chemical has an unique signature, and it is not something you can replicate out of thin air. You're not in the neuropharmacological driver's seat in terms of your own endogenous chemicals.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Carl-Richard

[kagaria]

@Leo Gura why don't you ask this  him personally? on comments

[Leo Gura]

Of course he is correct that most egos are not ready to handle the Truth that psychedelics unleash. Which is what causes bad trips.

[Lyubov]

18 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

There is validity to the idea that it can be very destablizing and intense, but that is exactly arguing in favor of the fact that it's a vastly different experience than what your brain is used to and that it's not reducible to mere "receptors". Every chemical has an unique signature, and it is not something you can replicate out of thin air. You're not in the neuropharmacological driver's seat in terms of your own endogenous chemicals.

Yeah I do agree. I was just pointing out this aspect of wisdom from what he was saying, it's useful for safe and productive psychedelic use. I don't think he is correct otherwise and have yet to see anyone have a brain tumor caused by psychedelics. 

[cobalto]

9 hours ago, kagaria said:

I want to ask him his opinion of why tumors appear in some people like Maharshi

Maharshi, Ramakrishna and a lot of spiritual teachers. Why? Repression maybe?

[Forestluv]

11 hours ago, alchemizt said:

The receptors that the molecules bind to and are all in there though. The brain doesn't produce LSD but LSD only works cuz there are 5-HT and other receptors in your body that it can activate. Every receptor has its endogenous ligand. Synaptic plasticity means sensitivity of receptors can change too. 

Thats like saying if you have 100 musical instruments, you’ve got a musical Symphony. The pattern of how those instruments are played to produce a Symphony is extremely complex. Think about the trillions of movements coordinated together to create that Symphony. The neural activity of a psychedelic-induced trip is far more complex. 

Below is a crude map of brain activity sober (left) and psychedelic-induced (right). This is a super low resolution map. The actuality is far more complex, yet we don’t have high resolution maps yet. Even with a low resolution map, it’s obvious that neural activity on psychedelics is very different than without psychedelics. Currently, there is no way to mimic such patterns sober. As well, there are unique differences among people and trips. And there are past history, genetic and environmental inputs. All adding to the complexity. 

[alchemizt]

14 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

So what?

That's like saying my head is a receptor for a hat. That doesn't mean my head will produce a hat come winter time.

It'd be more like if your head is made of jelly and there's a thousand hats of different sizes, in winter time with the cold, the conditions might be just right for the water molecules to freeze and expand, reshaping your head so it fits just right into a particular hat. Your head is already full of neurotransmitters. 

[alchemizt]

3 hours ago, Forestluv said:

Thats like saying if you have 100 musical instruments, you’ve got a musical Symphony. The pattern of how those instruments are played to produce a Symphony is extremely complex. Think about the trillions of movements coordinated together to create that Symphony. The neural activity of a psychedelic-induced trip is far more complex. 

Below is a crude map of brain activity sober (left) and psychedelic-induced (right). This is a super low resolution map. The actuality is far more complex, yet we don’t have high resolution maps yet. Even with a low resolution map, it’s obvious that neural activity on psychedelics is very different than without psychedelics. Currently, there is no way to mimic such patterns sober. As well, there are unique differences among people and trips. And there are past history, genetic and environmental inputs. All adding to the complexity. 

Itd be more like saying that the musical instruments and people to play them are all there so the potential to orchestrate the symphony is there. Under the right conditions maybe. Entraining the brain maybe like training the musicians to play this particular symphony and tuning the instruments just right. 

You'd need to see hundreds of those brain scans with all different types of people to get a real good idea of what it means. 

[Forestluv]

49 minutes ago, alchemizt said:

Itd be more like saying that the musical instruments and people to play them are all there so the potential to orchestrate the symphony is there.

The people are the psychedelic molecules. It would be very difficult to create a symphony without people playing the instruments. Similarly, it would be very difficult to mimic a psychedelic trip without psychedelics playing the serotonin receptors. 

49 minutes ago, alchemizt said:

Under the right conditions maybe. 

Yes and that right condition is with psychedelics. There is no other condition known at this time. Perhaps in the next 100 years a new method will be discovered to mimic the effects, yet currently there isn’t.

49 minutes ago, alchemizt said:

You'd need to see hundreds of those brain scans with all different types of people to get a real good idea of what it means. 

For sure. We currently have very low resolution. We need all sorts of imaging to get a higher resolution and gain understanding from a neuroscience perspective. Yet there is a clear difference. Imagine having a crude image of an ant vs an elephant. Yes, we can get more information with higher resolution photography and different angles - yet even crude imaging reveals an obvious differences between an ant and elephant. 

[peanutspathtotruth]

On 3.8.2020 at 6:44 AM, Shmurda said:

What do people think about his claim that the Pyramids were essentially consciousness satellites for advanced yogis to broadcast and triangulate higher frequency consciousness across the globe? 

Anyone heard anything to this effect before? It's far out man...

I love this guy, but when he started talking about the pyramids I was a bit perplexed at first But I have to say this is by far the coolest explanation of pyramids I've heard. I really think most of what he says comes from his direct experience, but in the end I don't know that. Rather propels me to find out for myself.

He always tickles in me this fascination for the possibility that history has way different backgrounds than we all think. Also this thing about the Yuga cycles and that a few thousand years ago people were WAY more conscious than we are today ... I have no clue, could be bullshit. But could be true as well.

Phew, at least the answers are all inside the Self forever. What a cool storyline all this is ?