Green/Progressive/Liberal shadow too much? Conversation

[Dragon Liege]

17 hours ago, Akemrelax said:

That was one of his good takes.

He said research shows there is a correlation between superstitious people and racism. If you think the date you were born on determines your personality or being, then it’s really not too far fetched for you think skin colour is linked to someone’s essential being or personality. If they can make you believe date of birth and people’s essence are linked, then they can also make you believe race determines who people are. People who believe in astrology/horoscope aren’t thinking for themselves.

Yea, witches can be left-leaning, there are plenty of wackos who support the right causes for the wrong reasons.

Ok I get what he's saying. I also forgot to say he said they tend to believe in conspiracy theories too. It's true to an extent. A lot of right people can be superstitious. One person I can think of who doesn't seem right wing, but has been spouting conspiracy theories is Ralph Smart. Specifically about Covid 19 and masks. He supports BLM I think. Does Ralph have some stage orange or is it just me? He seems to come off as a libertarian at times when it comes to the covid conspiracy stuff.

[Dragon Liege]

17 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Anyone living hundreds of years ago was racist.

By paganism he's basically referring to stage Purple. Yeah, of course stage Purple is racist. Anything below Orange will be racists.

Yeah that was my bad. I should have read between the lines a little more.

[alan2102]

On 7/31/2020 at 6:40 PM, Leo Gura said:

The problem is that while everyone is railing against Green, the reality is that Green has only just begun and we don't have anywhere near enough solid Green. People are yelling and kicking about Green when Green has yet to take power.

The only way forward is to dismantle the corrupt corporate neoliberal capitalist plutocracy, and that can only happen at solid Green, and it still decades away from being actualized.

All those people complaining about Green are just useful idiots for the corporate plutocracy. While they complain about cancel culture and SJW's, corporate plutocrats are sucking up all the country's wealth and killing the environment in a way which will be catastrophic.

The name of the game is distraction. People get lost in cultural issues while neglecting the real issue, which is the rotten economic system which has corrupted government.

Ken Wilber is not right on this. He's discounting the capitalism problem. What goes on at college campuses is irrelevant compared to the capitalism problem. Even if 1000 Jordan Peterson like professors are fired, it all means hardly anything compared to the capitalism problem.

The priorities are so out of wack, even among Spirally aware people.

The culture war is a huge distraction and it fools even intellectuals like Wilber.

Fantastic post, correct on every point, and displays an unusual and advanced understanding of SD in relation to politics today. Leo Gets It in a way I've never seen before. Good show!

Just to add: I'll be damned if I will ever understand why Wilber, such a brilliant guy, got green so very wrong, and effectively (even if not explicitly) bought-in to the neoliberal narrative.

 

[Forestluv]

On 7/31/2020 at 6:40 PM, Leo Gura said:

All those people complaining about Green are just useful idiots for the corporate plutocracy. While they complain about cancel culture and SJW's, corporate plutocrats are sucking up all the country's wealth and killing the environment in a way which will be catastrophic.

Along those lines:

[alan2102]

On 7/31/2020 at 9:16 PM, Leo Gura said:

Climate change is already here and it's already restructuring society.

Solid Green has been trying to emerge for the last 10 years but it's constantly being demonized and under attack by Blue & Orange. And this attack will continue for at least another 10 or 20 years until the situation becomes so catastrophic that Blue and Orange will be forced to admit the necessity of Green. But much damage will already be done by then. Hundreds of thousands of people will already be dead due to this attack on Green.

THIS X10 as well. And it may be hundreds of millions rather than thousands.

Worthwhile to add that green sprouts were trying to emerge decades ago, but were clubbed to death while still in infancy. Look up "powell memo" in search. It was a signal document, in 1971, setting the stage for and initiating a massive corporate/neoliberal backlash against the green uprising of the 1960s. The backlash, as it developed, consisted of a well-organized and well-funded array of thinktanks, semi-scholarly publications and events, pop media platforms and placements, and so forth, (i.e. a big and ongoing propaganda blitz), designed to undermine green ideas and solidify orange hegemony. It was highly successful. The boomers -- the hippies and nascent leftists (greens) of the 1960s -- abandoned their ideals *en masse* and turned into a generation of narcissistic navel-gazers and wastrels at best; greedy self-centered careerist orange assholes at worst. Many of them went completely over to the dark side, became Reagan boosters, libertarian fanatics, etc. (e.g. John Perry Barlow). The boomers tasted green but were forcefully turned back to orange, often a low/mean orange, or even worse. This was a critical turning point, and the turn was onto the path leading to catastrophe if unchecked.  Humanity, civilization, and the planet itself will pay very dearly, if they survive at all.

Wilber blames boomer narcissism, and no doubt personal responsibility plays a role; I will buy that the boomers are character disordered and deficient, as a group. But Wilber  gives short shrift (or even NO shrift, as though totally unaware) to the stuff I just mentioned, and the insidious structural forces that made it all but impossible for real green to breathe, much less prosper. Wilber ignores the elephants in the room, while railing endlessly about trivial and irrelevant shit like postmodernism.

/rant off

[Leo Gura]

52 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Along those lines:

In 20 years half the business in America will be monopolized by these 5 companies: Apple, Google, Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft

[Lindsay]

Spiral dynamics is useful when setting goals for your own actualization. Also useful for predicting the future. Also useful for interesting multiple perspectives. Also useful for knowing how to argue with people at various stages. By argue I mean explain things in a way that won’t trigger the opposing side and cause them to close their minds and invalidate your perspective. Instead use language that fits with their current values that resonates with them. You can help them think critically by asking them questions about the point that they cling to. 

Edited August 2, 2020 by Lindsay

[Dragon Liege]

On 8/1/2020 at 5:49 PM, Akemrelax said:

One really toxic example for green I could think of is hyperawareness of gender and race at my university.

Some people are suggesting mentioning your pronouns in emails. Some people have really created new jargon out of thin air which isn’t grounded in any physical or mental categories. We need categories of gender grounded in physical reality otherwise men can change their gender and walk into women’s changing rooms to spy on them. Now transgender people are fine but these other genders are not grounded in anything, they are just labels. 

These gender identities are more absurd than high school identities. How absurd would it be if I started asserting my “nerd” identity on everyone and said “nerds” are oppressed. Pretty sure that some people think this way already! Lol

The left needs to get it’s priorities straight, these issues are not really issues. 

Nope sorry it's not the equivalent of asserting a "nerd" identity. Nonbinary identities are the effect of strict gender norms and/or body dysphoria (as weird as that may sound). There has been specific excesses like the absurd identities on Tumblr. I'm not denying that.Just remembering someone"s as "they" really isn't that much of a burden. A very small fraction of nonbinary people use neopronouns. "Men can change their gender and walk into women's changing rooms to spy on them" is a right wing talking point against trans people even binary ones. I know because I hear it a lot. I don't think you're a right winger though. I'm not accusing you of it. I'm just asking you to understand a nonbinary people better.

I'll leave it at this.

[Forestluv]

52 minutes ago, Dragon Liege said:

Nope sorry it's not the equivalent of asserting a "nerd" identity. Nonbinary identities are the effect of strict gender norms and/or body dysphoria

It’s interesting how some minds are locked into a strict binary gender construct and think anything outside the two normal genders is an imaginary identity. Yet they cannot see their own gender to which they subconsciously identify is just as imaginary. Generally they have been raised in a society dominated with two strict gender categories and their own relative experience is within one of these gender categories. This to them is normal and anything outside of these two categories would be an imaginary identity (since it would be an imaginary identity if they were to do it).

In terms of SD, high green / yellow would have an understanding of ones own relative experience and relating that to a different relative experience of another. One of Orange’s big resistances to this is to define gender as two distinct categories based on physical attributes, such as genitalia.  

[Leo Gura]

51 minutes ago, Dragon Liege said:

"Men can ....... walk into women's changing rooms to spy on them" is a right wing talking point against trans people

The absurd irony is that Trump did exactly that, and they love him for it!

Their hypocrisy as no bottom.

Lol

[Dragon Liege]

3 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

It’s interesting how some minds are locked into a strict binary gender construct and think anything outside the two normal genders are an imaginary identity. Yet they cannot see their own gender to which they subconsciously identify is just as imaginary. They have been raised in a society dominated with two strict gender categories and their own relative experience in within one of these gender categories. This to them is normal and anything outside of these categories would be an imaginary identity (since it would be an imaginary identity if they were to do it). In terms of SD, this would be a high green / yellow understanding of ones own relative experience and relating that to another’s relative experience. One of Orange’s big resistances to this is to try to define gender as two distinct categories based on physical attributes, such as genitalia.  

In a sense they are imaginary. It's internal feelings. I know because I identify nonbinary myself leaning female. It came from questioning stuff. I realize that this is an identity which I will lose at least by the end of my life. All gender identity is imaginary and will end eventually including cis identity. I'm probably stage green/orange with stages I need to fully integrate.

I forgot to mention that stage green people supporting nonbinary rights do realize sex is a thing when I replied. Stage green doesn't ignore this. Also intersex people exist which people seem to downplay. 1.7% I think was the number. I got it from a video where Vaush talked about intersex people. It's more than the amount of Jewish people. I'm not sure if it's accurate.

Leo said gender identity can happen at any stage in his nuances video. I will probably post something about nonbinary indigenous identities when Leo starts the stage purple examples mega thread. Some tribal cultures had nonbinary genders though their roles might have been stricter for those identities I think.

[Forestluv]

7 minutes ago, Dragon Liege said:

In a sense they are imaginary. It's internal feelings. I know because I identify nonbinary myself leaning female. It came from questioning stuff. I realize that this is an identity which I will lose at least by the end of my life. All gender identity is imaginary and will end eventually including cis identity. I'm probably stage green/orange with stages I need to fully integrate.

Yes, they are all imaginary. My point is that strict “male” or “female” gender is also imaginary. That is what many cis-gender people have a hard time understanding. They think that my male-ness is obviously real and their nonbinary-ness must be an imaginary identity. Yet one’s traditional “male” gender identity is just as imaginary as a transgender or nonbinary identity. 

This can be uncomfortable and scary for some cis-gender people to realize. For me, it was super cool because it opened up some new avenues of exploration and fluidity. 

[Dragon Liege]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The absurd irony is that Trump did exactly that, and they love him for it!

Their hypocrisy as no bottom.

Lol

With my mom, I think she's not aware he did that or she'll assume it's false accusations. As for hypocrisy, she points out corruption of the democrats even though Trump sent feds into Portland and is going to do it for Detroit, Cleveland, and Milwaukee. She was saying I didn't see the whole thing even though I saw them attacking a veteran asking them a question.

[Dragon Liege]

6 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Yes, they are all imaginary. My point is that strict “male” or “female” gender is also imaginary. That is what many cis-gender people have a hard time understanding. They think that my male-ness is obviously real and their nonbinary-ness must be an imaginary identity. Yet one’s traditional “male” gender identity is just as imaginary as a transgender or nonbinary identity. 

This can be uncomfortable and scary for some cis-gender people to realize. For me, it was super cool because it opened up some new avenues of exploration and fluidity. 

I agreed with you. I was just clarifying my position.

Realizing I was trans and nonbinary did give me a new perspective. I think Contrapoints video "Are the Traps Gay?" is an example. I've watched it 3 times with different perspectives.

1. I was angry at Contrapoints for not realizing what I thought trap meant. I was attached to the idea it meant guy looking feminine tricking other guy (it does, but read on).

2. I was a wokescold with green excesses and blindly agreeing.

3. I realize I'm trans and nonbinary and trap actually hurts. It's not just transphobic. It's homophobic too even used against cis men. It makes a joke about a guy being tricked into being gay. This is after realizing some of the limits of green. I admit I fail at following through on that sometimes.

It's wild that I went from 1 to 3 as far as opinions go. It has given me perspective as a person thinking they were cis to realizing they have a nonbinary identity. Funny thing is Contrapoints I think talked about it in "Men." Having male privilege before realizing their identity. Her take was interesting and can relate to that part.

[Akemrelax]

5 hours ago, Dragon Liege said:

"Men can change their gender and walk into women's changing rooms to spy on them" is a right wing talking point against trans people even binary ones. I know because I hear it a lot. I don't think you're a right winger though. I'm not accusing you of it. I'm just asking you to understand a nonbinary people better.

Calling something right wing doesn’t automatically prove it wrong. How do you stop them then?

Do what you will, you will not change gender definitions in the world. You can change that in your little university. Using “they” doesn’t even work in many languages. How many genders do dogs have?

This is the exact shit that makes people hate the left and vote Trump in power. There is actual oppression which gets side lined when you focus on such issues.

5 hours ago, Forestluv said:

One of Orange’s big resistances to this is to define gender as two distinct categories based on physical attributes, such as genitalia. 

Here comes @Forestluv. ? 

That’s the definition. Ya, it’s imaginary but we need them. 

Physical categories don’t have to be limiting, as long as there are no stereotypes around them.

What you’re saying is like - “don’t call me white because I have white skin. Orange only defines race based on physical attributes. It is imaginary. Please call me black. Actually call me “non race” because I don’t fit into any category . Therefore I have no white privilege. Actually “non-race” people are underrepresented and suppressed everywhere. You don’t understand what it’s like to be “non-race”.”

You criticized Brett for having half-baked ideas, but what you’re presenting is the ultimate half-baked idea!

[Akemrelax]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The absurd irony is that Trump did exactly that, and they love him for it!

Their hypocrisy as no bottom.

Lol

Well, the other option was BILL CLINTON’s WIFE! A lot of people loved her too, with Bill hovering in the back.

[Dragon Liege]

11 minutes ago, Akemrelax said:

Calling something right wing doesn’t automatically prove it wrong. How do you stop them then?

Do what you will, you will not change gender definitions in the world. You can change that in your little university. Using “they” doesn’t even work in many languages. How many genders do dogs have?

This is the exact shit that makes people hate the left and vote Trump in power. There is actual oppression which gets side lined when you focus on such issues.

Here comes @Forestluv. ? 

That’s the definition. Ya, it’s imaginary but we need them. 

Physical categories don’t have to be limiting, as long as there are no stereotypes around them.

What you’re saying is like - “don’t call me white because I have white skin. Orange only defines race based on physical attributes. It is imaginary. Please call me black. Actually call me “non race” because I don’t fit into any category . Therefore I have no white privilege. Actually “non-race” people are underrepresented and suppressed everywhere. You don’t understand what it’s like to be “non-race”.”

You criticized Brett for having half-baked ideas, but what you’re presenting is the ultimate half-baked idea!

I never went to college. You're assuming things about me. You didn't read my reply to Forestluv. I admit I should have sent that to you. Stage green does realize sex is a thing.  You know intersex people exist right?

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/sex-gender-identity/whats-intersex

https://isna.org/faq/frequency/

I also mentioned tribal societies having nonbinary ideas. It's different than western ideas of nonbinary identities, but still.

https://listverse.com/2018/10/03/10-societies-that-recognize-more-than-two-genders/

I'm talking about the English language when referring to they. It's also been used as a singular pronoun for hundreds of years. I can also argue language is a bunch of made up sounds. It also changes a lot. Old English is unreadable.

I don't sideline other matters. Global warming, the bad medical system in the US, more affordable education (why I decided not to go to college), systematic racism.

I'm not going to convince someone afraid that men are going to spy on women in the bathroom. We can agree to disagree here so we don't get further into a debate that gets us way off topic. I just wanted to put my opinion out there. I am gonna try my best and not reply.

[Akemrelax]

@Dragon Liege I didn’t mean “your university” specifically...

Don’t know about other cultures but the Hijras in India traditionally have a biological basis, I’m Indian and have first hand knowledge of the cultural norms. You can’t become a Hijra just like that, at least traditionally. Also they use one of the two gender pronouns.

Yes, I know intersex people exist... I’m not talking about them. Kind of disrespectful to assume I don’t know. You know non-binary is different from intersex right?

55 minutes ago, Dragon Liege said:

I'm not going to convince someone afraid that men are going to spy on women in the bathroom.

Yea, well it’s still a concern. If you look at people who have this concern as beneath you then... well, it’s your prerogative.  Good luck convincing people of your cause.

[Forestluv]

11 hours ago, Akemrelax said:

What you’re saying is like - “don’t call me white because I have white skin.

That is not like what I’m saying. That is your construct and you are conflating. To me, you don’t seem open to contemplating what I communicate.

[Forestluv]

10 hours ago, Dragon Liege said:

I'm not going to convince someone afraid that men are going to spy on women in the bathroom.

This fear is reflective of the misunderstanding some cis-gender people have about gender. They think a man is going to put on a dress and makeup, then say “I’m a woman” and go into women’s restrooms to spy for his jollies. This is a misunderstanding of gender.