Green/Progressive/Liberal shadow too much? Conversation

[Matt23]

So I've been listening to the Rebel Wisdom, Doshin Roshi, Ken Wilber, Intellectual Dark web stuff for a few months now and see how each of them, in one degree or another, is pointing out or reacting against (or perhaps a bit of both) the Green, Liberal, and Progressive shadow and cancel culture.

I'm a bit torn since some of Leo's comments seem to suggest that many of them are reacting negatively to the Green (as a general term) worldview and that they need to open up to it more.  Though, some of their arguments I can also see, and feel, as being legitimate.  

What do you see and think about this?

Do you think the Greens (Spiral Dynamics, not the Green Part), progressives, and liberals going too far, have too much shadow, and are exhibiting many unhealthy behaviors?  

Or, do you think that the critiques from those mentioned above (the Ken Wilbers, Jordan Petersons, Doshin Roshis, and even Rebel Wisdoms, etc.) don't present a fully balanced and accurate view of the Greens and are largely coming from their own shadows and biases?

Side Note:

       - I think Rebel Wisdom generally has a more balanced position then some of the others (like Jordan Peterson and the Intellectual Dark Web).  Though, I suspect they are largely influenced by Ken Wilber's work and may have absorbed some of Ken's views of the pathological Green that has emerged in the West.

Do you think Ken Wilber's views of stage Green are valid or not?  

Cheers.

 

[Leo Gura]

The problem is that while everyone is railing against Green, the reality is that Green has only just begun and we don't have anywhere near enough solid Green. People are yelling and kicking about Green when Green has yet to take power.

The only way forward is to dismantle the corrupt corporate neoliberal capitalist plutocracy, and that can only happen at solid Green, and it still decades away from being actualized.

All those people complaining about Green are just useful idiots for the corporate plutocracy. While they complain about cancel culture and SJW's, corporate plutocrats are sucking up all the country's wealth and killing the environment in a way which will be catastrophic.

The name of the game is distraction. People get lost in cultural issues while neglecting the real issue, which is the rotten economic system which has corrupted government.

Ken Wilber is not right on this. He's discounting the capitalism problem. What goes on at college campuses is irrelevant compared to the capitalism problem. Even if 1000 Jordan Peterson like professors are fired, it all means hardly anything compared to the capitalism problem.

The priorities are so out of wack, even among Spirally aware people.

The culture war is a huge distraction and it fools even intellectuals like Wilber.

[Forestluv]

This is a Green Progressive describing how corporate plutocracy manipulates uneducated blue as useful idiots to rail against Green and profit. It is a parody of PragerU, yet he is clearly a progressive criticizing toxic capitalism. It’s a distraction so corporate plutocracy can continue devouring America. . .They have been doing this for many years. With an Covid-related economic collapse, perhaps more people will wake up. 

 

[Annoynymous]

@Leo Gura hey, what about climate change? If it finds us before we are prepared, don't you think it will shake up every structure of the society? I think that can be a potential time for solid green to be emerged (though i wish they emerge much before so that we can do something meaningful to stop climate disaster)

[Akemrelax]

44 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The problem is that while everyone is railing against Green, the reality is that Green has only just begun and we don't have anywhere near enough solid Green. People are yelling and kicking about Green when Green has take power.

The only way forward is to dismantle the corrupt corporate neoliberal capitalist plutocracy, and that can only happen at solid Green, and it still decades away from being actualized.

All those people complaining about Green are just useful idiots for the corporate plutocracy. While they complain about cancel culture and SJW's, corporate plutocrats are sucking up all the country's wealth and killing the environment in a way which will be catastrophic.

The name of the game is distraction. People get lost in cultural issues while neglecting the real issue, which is the rotten economic system which has corrupted government.

Ken Wilber is not right on this. He's discounting the capitalism problem. What goes on at college campuses is irrelevant compared to the capitalism problem. Even if 1000 Jordan Peterson like professors are fired, it all means hardly anything compared to the capitalism problem.

The priorities are so out of wack, even among Spirally aware people.

The culture war is a huge distraction and it fools even intellectuals like Wilber.

Tribalism, red vs. blue.

Vote blue cause it’s slightly less fucked up.

Hell world.

There’s something about these lefties that makes me want to say “fuck it!” and end it all, vote for the racists, and see the world burn. Idk what it is, maybe the hypocrisy and moral superiority, but it makes want to go dark.

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Annoynymous said:

@Leo Gura hey, what about climate change? If it finds us before we are prepared, don't you think it will shake up every structure of the society? I think that can be a potential time for solid green to be emerged (though i wish they emerge much before so that we can do something meaningful to stop climate disaster)

Climate change is already here and it's already restructuring society.

Solid Green has been trying to emerge for the last 10 years but it's constantly being demonized and under attack by Blue & Orange. And this attack will continue for at least another 10 or 20 years until the situation becomes so catastrophic that Blue and Orange will be forced to admit the necessity of Green. But much damage will already be done by then. Hundreds of thousands of people will already be dead due to this attack on Green.

1 hour ago, Akemrelax said:

There’s something about these lefties that makes me want to say “fuck it!” and end it all, vote for the racists, and see the world burn.

That's exactly why the devil is turning this into a culture war.

You have to see through the distraction.

You have to have enough intelligence to see how the devil plays his tricks.

The devil wins when you get jaded, disillusioned, and cynical.

[Dragon Liege]

I think IDW is pretty garbage. There's some interesting things Jordan Peterson says when he's not demonizing stage green. I am very ambivalent to him. Taking political advice from Ben Shapiro is just not a good idea. Trust me my mom watches the Daily Wire and I know how much fear mongering garbage comes from him, Knowles, and Walsh (both also from the Daily Wire). Sam Harris makes racial IQ arguments. Dave Rubin is different than what he claims. He whines about green a lot. I think I heard Joe Rogan was IDW. Probably the only decent one out of the bunch and sometimes Jordan Peterson. Do look into them to see how they've come to those conclusions, but yeah IDW is a trap.

Rebel Wisdom I don't know about.

Ken Wilbur is very interesting, but he does seem to have a green shadow.

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The problem is that while everyone is railing against Green, the reality is that Green has only just begun and we don't have anywhere near enough solid Green. People are yelling and kicking about Green when Green has yet to take power.

The only way forward is to dismantle the corrupt corporate neoliberal capitalist plutocracy, and that can only happen at solid Green, and it still decades away from being actualized.

All those people complaining about Green are just useful idiots for the corporate plutocracy. While they complain about cancel culture and SJW's, corporate plutocrats are sucking up all the country's wealth and killing the environment in a way which will be catastrophic.

The name of the game is distraction. People get lost in cultural issues while neglecting the real issue, which is the rotten economic system which has corrupted government.

Ken Wilber is not right on this. He's discounting the capitalism problem. What goes on at college campuses is irrelevant compared to the capitalism problem. Even if 1000 Jordan Peterson like professors are fired, it all means hardly anything compared to the capitalism problem.

The priorities are so out of wack, even among Spirally aware people.

The culture war is a huge distraction and it fools even intellectuals like Wilber.

 

Didn't know how to delete quotes so it looks like two (was gonna comment on something specific, changed my mind, and pressed quote again).

 

I've fallen into this trap until last year as I used to be an anti-sjw. I've known stage green more after interacting with them and getting into Breadtube. I can confirm a lot of it is outright false and exaggerated by anti-sjws. Not everything said is false and more problematic aspects of the left have been criticized by Contrapoints and Vaush. I'm for criticizing people when it's useful and not crap fear mongering.

[Akemrelax]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's exactly why the devil is turning this into a culture war.

You have to see through the distraction.

You have to have enough intelligence to see how the devil plays his tricks.

The devil wins when you get jaded, disillusioned, and cynical.

Yea. I try to do that. Blue and orange crowd can be really toxic.

I try to remember the red, blue, and orange around the world.

43 minutes ago, Dragon Liege said:

problematic aspects of the left have been criticized by Contrapoints and Vaush

Vaush calls Saagar Enjeti and Krystal Ball Nazis... He's pretty problematic himself.

[TrustTheProcess]

28 minutes ago, Akemrelax said:

Vaush calls Saagar Enjeti and Krystal Ball Nazis... He's pretty problematic himself.

Vaush has his flaws, but he is significantly less problematic than pretty much every conservative commentator that I've seen

[Gidiot]

However toxic it is to moralize to people about your vegan diet and how you shouldn’t eat meat and use the correct pronouns for a trans person and be inclusive, it’s far more toxic to rape the economy (toxic Orange) Lynch and segregate people create hate groups (toxic blue) and start wars and genocides  (toxic red) people need to realize that overreaction is probably better than apathy. An sjw at the worst might threaten your free speech and maybe even the worst like antifa could beat you up being racist, but that’s far less toxic than the excess of orange blue and red and it’s not even close. We won’t see yellow in our life times so we gotta cherish the best we’ve got. 
 

we can aim for solid green before we die(In USA)  and that would be a great and average world citizen healthy orange. Would be a great accomplishment! 
 

people need to get over themselves and realize how far we’ve come.

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, Akemrelax said:

aush calls Saagar Enjeti and Krystal Ball Nazis... He's pretty problematic himself.

Vaush is yet immature.

Sam Seder or Bernie Sanders is a mature example of Green. Their views are very practical and sensible without hyperbolic demonization.

[Scholar]

@Leo Gura Can you not set up a conversation with WIlber, or maybe get in contact with the Integral Life people. How will we expand the thinking if we just keep it to ourselves?

https://www.youtube.com/user/IntegralNaked

 

[Leo Gura]

@Scholar For what purpose? Why would I want to argue with Ken Wilber?

He's like 70 years old. I'm not about to change his mind.

You gotta learn to think for yourself rather than expecting some authority figure to give you the answer.

It's your job to figure out how Spiral Dynamics works and how to apply it properly.

Don't trust anyone to do it for you.

[Scholar]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

@Scholar For what purpose? Why would I want to argue with Ken Wilber?

Having a conversation is not equal to arguing, he is an integral thinker so he might be receptive to new ideas. Other than that you can educate other integral thinkers who would listen to that conversation.

The purpose might not even become clear, or unfold, until the conversation has happened, so to ask why might not be the right question to ask.

[Leo Gura]

@Scholar I have too many insights to share to waste time extracting insights from humans.

[Dragon Liege]

I have some ambivalence to Vaush. He does some good research, but also has toxic aspects. His edginess is a double edged sword. It gets some younger people on board because they find him hilarious and entertaining. The downside is he's made jokes and sometimes serious statements that are generalizations. I think he's called all conservatives pedophiles even though he was joking. It sort of contradicts his value of optics when he says things like that.

On one of his streams, he straw manned pagans and people who believe in astrology on one of his phone streams. Some people in his chat argued with him that many witches tend to be left leaning. There are right wing pagans for sure. That was probably one of his worst takes. I debated myself about making that a thread. He has toxic green in some areas and toxic orange in other areas.

I could probably make a thread about him. There are good and bad things to talk about.

[Dragon Liege]

12 hours ago, Akemrelax said:

Vaush calls Saagar Enjeti and Krystal Ball Nazis... He's pretty problematic himself.

For whatever reason you weren't quoted in my last post. I thought I did quote you.

[Heart of Space]

People are goofballs with this spiral dynamics stuff.  

Real humans don't conform to a neat and orderly chart that defines certain beliefs and ways of thinking.  Real humans have contradictory idea's and beliefs, and are ideologically messy.  No one person is all green, or all orange, or whatever.  People are a rainbow of different ways of thinking.  

I hadn't been to this forum in a while and when I return everyone is obsessed with characterizing everything from a spiral dynamics perspective.  To me it's an interesting idea, but it's a fad that's being taken way too seriously and it's chart far too literally and strictly.  

I think that SD is better at characterizing specific idea's or beliefs rather than people themselves.  But man, some of ya'll gotta get out of this SD box ya'll are in, it's just getting silly and profoundly unhelpful in terms of characterizing entire groups of people.  

I think a big part of the appeal of SD is to make certain people feel more evolved than other people.  Or to give the illusion that they are a "higher level" or "lower level" of thinking versus someone else.  

Edited August 1, 2020 by Heart of Space

[Roy]

18 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

I think that SD is better at characterizing specific idea's or beliefs rather than people themselves.  But man, some of ya'll gotta get out of this SD box ya'll are in, it's just getting silly and profoundly unhelpful in terms of characterizing entire groups of people.  

I think a big part of the appeal of SD is to make certain people feel more evolved than other people.  Or to give the illusion that they are a "higher level" or "lower level" of thinking versus someone else.  

@Heart of Space I've been saying this for a while. It's become an ideology around here and an answer for bloody everything. People aren't thinking nearly as deeply about things as they should.

[Heart of Space]

1 minute ago, Roy said:

@Heart of Space I've been saying this for a while. It's become an ideology around here and an answer for bloody everything. People aren't thinking nearly as deeply about things as they should.

I mean I get the allure of it and I think it has some use as a tool to understand idea's and characterize them relative to their effect on the progress of civilization.  

Kinda as you said though, people are using it to lazily characterize and stereotype individuals through the lenses of it.   It's starting to become cringe worthy when everyone literally can't have a single conversation without bringing up spiral dynamics colors.