Is Holotropic/Shamanic Breathing safe?

[Zugs]

So I've done Holotropic/Shamanic Breathing a few times now (have only done it to the point of losing feeling in arms face etc and not to altered states). I am basically doing it instead of doing Psychedelics as more of an entry point into alter states as I have to deal with a lot of issues before I make that leap. The idea being that I would have more control (to a point) when doing breathwork vs taking a Psychedelic, especially at the start of this journey.

Anyway, I have a few questions I would like to ask when it comes to this. Am I right in thinking that Holotropic/Shamanic Breathing is pretty much just Hyperventilation? Or does Holotropic/Shamanic Breathing differ in some way to Hyperventilation? I know that the Wim Hof method for example says that you're actually increasing the oxygen levels in your blood vs depleting them but as far as I know, you're still hyperventilating during a session so I'm not sure whether to take that as a false promise (no disrespect meant) or as my own lack of understanding. And isn't Hyperventilation the depletion of Co2 and not the depletion of oxygen? If that is correct, if you're decreasing Co2, you're increasing Oxygen, which is still the same problem, just with people not understanding what Hyperventilation is when the argument of Oxygen depletion comes in.

And if Holotropic/Shamanic Breathing is just Hyperventilation, could Hyperventilation itself just be misunderstood? As in if a Scientist/Doctor finds out that Hyperventilation could cause you to pass out for example (among other things), they would logically conclude you shouldn't do it. But then the question becomes what happens when you move past those notions and perceived understandings and explore further?

Basically I'm just wondering if Holotropic/Shamanic Breathing is relatively safe or not and if by doing it I'm killing off my brain cells. Although I would like to clarify some of the things mentioned above.

[Gesundheit]

It's more complicated than that. Research the relationship between blood gases and metabolic and respiratory pH.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Gesundheit

[universe]

5 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

It's more complicated than that. Research the relationship between blood gases and metabolic and respiratory pH.

I did some research and what I've found is that "hyperventilation does not only reduce the total cerebral blood flow, but also changes the distribution of blood flow within the brain." http://www.anesthesiaweb.org/hyperventilation.php

But is holotropic breathing the same as hyperventilation?

Also, anyone knows if you increase oxidative stress on your body by doing this kind of breathwork? That's something I always wondered  

[Gesundheit]

@universe check these out, I haven't read them in particular since I have a general background on the topic, but they should be helpful:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_acidosis

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/324539#causes

The key words here are metabolic acidosis and respiratory alkalosis, both of which are related to hyperventilation.

[Zugs]

7 hours ago, universe said:

But is holotropic breathing the same as hyperventilation?

 

7 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

@universe check these out, I haven't read them in particular since I have a general background on the topic, but they should be helpful:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_acidosis

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/324539#causes

The key words here are metabolic acidosis and respiratory alkalosis, both of which are related to hyperventilation.

Okay so if I've studied this correctly,

Co2 is a by product created through the chemical reactions of cells in the body that is eliminated through breath. Co2 is vital as it regulates the acidity of blood. Acidity and alkalinity levels within the body at proper levels equal a balanced and optimized body and these Acidity and alkalinity levels are measured and referred to as "pH". So CO2 reacts with water to form H2CO3 (carbonic acid), but carbonic acid is usually in the ionized state which forms a hydrogen ion and a bicarbonate ion (HCO3-), which I'm assuming means the Hydrogen ion gains a proton and the bicarbonate ion receives an electron. 

There is a lot of bicarbonate in the body, both on a blood level and a between cell level. As there is so much bicarbonate in the body, it will take time for the ion to both decrease or increase in size due to changes in the amount of carbon dioxide in the body. Normally, all carbon dioxide is removed from the body when one exhales. When the volumes of air one breaths in and out go above what is considered the norm (as in Hyperventilating), more carbon dioxide is removed which effectively lowers the pressure of carbon dioxide in the body (Line from the link: "whereby carbonic acid changes back to into water and carbon dioxide, eventually resulting in a new equilibrium between bicarbonate ion and carbon dioxide").

Meaning the body does not have enough time to regulate the levels of bicarbonate. Thus, when you lower the amount of Co2 in the body you also lower the pressure of carbon dioxide which would create a "new" balance between bicarbonate and Co2. With the body experiencing a quick decrease in the pressure of Co2, the pH levels in the body increase because the amount of bicarbonate is not being released at the same rate. Which is referred to as “alkalosis”. Assuming that is all correct, I am with you to this point. 

But I think the same question @universe mentioned is still on the table. That being, "is holotropic breathing the same as hyperventilation?". As if all the above is going on with Hyperventialtion, does the same happen with Holotropic, Shamanic (etc) Breathwork?

Edit: I would assume if you are changing the pressure of Co2, any change in breath (at least rapid breath) would still be considered Hyperventilating correct? Which would mean Holotropic, Shamanic (etc) Breathwork would all have the same risks as Hyperventilation? But if we're looking at Hyperventilation as a static increase in breath resulting in all it does, could Holotropic, Shamanic (etc) Breathwork at a different pace not have the same risks? As in, doing a type of breathwork  that would not be lowering the pressure of Co2 to such a degree that it would be considered Hyperventilation. Which I guess goes back to the question of "is holotropic breathing the same as hyperventilation?"

Edited July 31, 2020 by Zugs

[Gesundheit]

Hyperventilation in itself is not problematic. The term usually refers to a symptom caused by an underlying condition. It's rather the underlying cause, if there's any, that is problematic, not the symptom.

However, I can't say with 100% certainty that holotropic breathing is 100% safe. In moderate application, the risks are low. But how long and how much can the body hold? I can't tell.

Consider the case of running, or any other physical activity that involves rapid breathing. Hyperventilation in this case is a physiological mechanism by which the body creates active compensation so that the body can work more efficiently for a brief period of time. Similar to over-clocking a processor I would say. However, in the holotropic breathing it's different, since there's very little actual physical activity, and the position and posture of the body affect the blood flow and pressure in different organs. So as opposed to physical exercise the blood will not be directed towards the muscles but rather towards the brain.

The metabolic alkalosis aids in bonding oxygen particles to haemoglobin, making it more efficient in transferring oxygen to the brain cells. Changes in pH are usually kept in a narrow range so that the pH does not go high or drop suddenly. Breathwork is more like pushing against the regulating system gradually, and still to a very limited extent. Otherwise a lot of things will start going wrong. Normal range is 7.35 and up to 7.40 for pH. A pH greater than 7.65 may carry a high risk of mortality (up to 80%). Regulation occurs by two main pathways (organs); the lungs and the kidneys. The lungs of course is the faster route. Kidneys take a long time relatively for filtration. So that's what the breathing technique is targeting. If you have any health issues regarding the lungs, then you should absolutely stay away from such practices. Also be extremely cautious with diabetes and other metabolic diseases.

I'm not a doctor (yet) so don't take anything I say seriously.

[anxious_turtle]

Once I did it standing in front of a mirror. Not very smart, I know. I passed out, fell down and hit my head.

Another time I did it sitting in front of a table. Passed out and hit my forehead on the table.

Last time I did it was on a hill in the forest, sitting in perfect pose. Passed out and rolled down the hill.

 

So, make sure you're in a safe place with nothing to hit your head on

[Gesundheit]

@anxious_turtle totally saved my day ?

[Vagos]

To my understanding both holotropic breathwork and shamanic breathing (and also dragon breathing) are essentially hyperventilation. I believe whatever difference people claim to find between these is due to factors like set and setting and not to the actual practices. Hyperventilation drops the amount of CO2 in your blood which makes the pH of your blood increase. Your neurons work differently in a higher pH environment and so you have a different experience of reality.

As to the physical dangers, there are hardly any dangers if at all from hyperventilating other than the types of dangers that @anxious_turtle  stated above. Also always try to do that with a sitter if you want to go deep because the situation can potentially get out of hand in the same way that it can get out of hand with psychedelics. You don't want yourself somehow lighting a fire or calling your ex.

In relation to the potential physical dangers, Stanislav Grof (the person who coined the term holotropic breathwork) has a very extensive bibliography on the subject in which there are some of the literally thousands of cases that he has guided, and through his lifetime of exercising this practice to patients as a job there hasn't ever been a single case of death, or of a person being physically harmed from the practice.

Having said that you should probably abstain from this practice if you have epilepsy, schizophrenia or coronary heart disease because of the rise of blood pressure that can happen due to the psychological nature of the experience.

Now I would really love to hear if anyone has anything to say about the potential long term cellular damage from oxidative stress and if this is serious or somehow at least increased. Just in case I would probably stuff myself with antioxidants after each session to help eliminate any free radicals formed.

Edit: If you are serious about hyperventilation (or even about altered states in general) I would definitely recommend Dr. Stanislav Grof books. They are gold and they will be able to give you a point of reference with which to ground and integrate your experiences

Edited August 2, 2020 by Vagos