Holding a BLM Sign In Arkansas

[Consept]

12 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

People are triggered because they don't believe that BLM is for Black lives, they don't trust BLM to be true to its agenda. It can come across as anti-white. When you say BLM, it can come across as ostracizing and neglecting white people.

OK so what would be a good way to raise this issue which is very relevant for black people without 'neglecting' white people? What is the best way to get them to listen and not be triggered? Keeping in mind protesting peacefully ie Colin Kapernick also triggered people. 

15 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Racism is not the exception, it is the norm. Everyone has unconscious biases, and they aren't necessarily bad, they're natural. It takes much more of an effort to be politically correct and not offend people. Maybe you understand why SJWs care about social justice, but you yourself don't really care about it. If you don't really care about social justice, your normal reaction will be 'Why don't white lives matter?' This is rationalized as racism by SJWs.

I would argue that a lot of unconscious bias are not natural, there has been many instances historically of painting black people in a certain way through media, from 'Birth of a Nation' up to modern day focus on the negatives of 'black culture' (poverty culture would be more accurate). So these stereotypes and perceptions of black people were embedded into everyones psyches, how can it be natural to think a person youve never met is a certain way, of course there will have to external influences. 

I understand if you dont care about social justice that will be your natural reaction, but not caring about social justice means you are in a privileged position of not having social justice taken away from you. Im not blind so im in a privileged position of not having to care if blind people are being treated fairly, if blind people complain that they arent being treated fairly, would it make sense for me to start saying 'sighted peoples lives matter too', why are these blind people always complaining? and then justify it by saying, ' well you know its my normal reaction not to care about blind people', even though i have no idea how theyre being mistreated? People can do that if they want but lets not pretend they have a point or care about anything other how they dont want to feel bad at facing how they might be internally racist and that makes them feel uncomfortable. For me it just shows a complete lack of compassion, id rather have a society with more compassion than less 

 

[Parththakkar12]

1 hour ago, Consept said:

OK so what would be a good way to raise this issue which is very relevant for black people without 'neglecting' white people? What is the best way to get them to listen and not be triggered? Keeping in mind protesting peacefully ie Colin Kapernick also triggered people. 

There's only one way to get them to listen without being triggered - We expand our circle of concern to include them. If they feel neglected, it's very possible that they are. Of course White people were the slave owners and Black people were the slaves, so if you look at it from a 'social justice' perspective, White people are 'privileged' over Black people. So we will have to let go of the concept of 'social justice' or 'privilege' or 'equality' in order to really resolve this conflict.

Tbh, I never really understood the concept of social justice. The way I understand justice, it is about preserving the integrity of the rules of the community. That is the whole point of punishing 'bad behavior', i.e. it's bad from the perspective of community survival. I don't quite understand why 'social justice' is needed, i.e. why do we need to re-surface past conflicts between races, sexes, etc. It isn't needed for community survival. I understand when minorities, women, LGBT community, etc. want to empower themselves, but when it comes at the cost of taking away the power of the majority, that's when 'social justice' becomes problematic. A lot of times the fight for 'social justice' becomes about taking revenge for the past. This doesn't solve anything, in fact it perpetuates the same cycle of hatred and resentment.

What's really needed here is conflict-resolution on a mass scale. All parties involved need to be willing to come together and honestly resolve it. That won't happen if we cling to fighting for 'social justice'. It also won't happen if we try to manipulate this process for our own selfish ends.

1 hour ago, Consept said:

I would argue that a lot of unconscious bias are not natural, there has been many instances historically of painting black people in a certain way through media, from 'Birth of a Nation' up to modern day focus on the negatives of 'black culture' (poverty culture would be more accurate). So these stereotypes and perceptions of black people were embedded into everyones psyches, how can it be natural to think a person youve never met is a certain way, of course there will have to external influences. 

We could debate on what's 'natural' all day. My point is that the human mind is fundamentally biased for survival purposes. I don't think this is changing anytime soon.

1 hour ago, Consept said:

I understand if you dont care about social justice that will be your natural reaction, but not caring about social justice means you are in a privileged position of not having social justice taken away from you. Im not blind so im in a privileged position of not having to care if blind people are being treated fairly, if blind people complain that they arent being treated fairly, would it make sense for me to start saying 'sighted peoples lives matter too', why are these blind people always complaining? and then justify it by saying, ' well you know its my normal reaction not to care about blind people', even though i have no idea how theyre being mistreated? People can do that if they want but lets not pretend they have a point or care about anything other how they dont want to feel bad at facing how they might be internally racist and that makes them feel uncomfortable. For me it just shows a complete lack of compassion, id rather have a society with more compassion than less 

I understand what you're saying. The unfortunate reality of our world today is that most people will never know what compassion is. This does not mean we can't get them on our side. What we need is genuine resolution where all parties are willing to go through with it.

[Consept]

10 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

There's only one way to get them to listen without being triggered - We expand our circle of concern to include them. If they feel neglected, it's very possible that they are. Of course White people were the slave owners and Black people were the slaves, so if you look at it from a 'social justice' perspective, White people are 'privileged' over Black people. So we will have to let go of the concept of 'social justice' or 'privilege' or 'equality' in order to really resolve this conflict.

Tbh, I never really understood the concept of social justice. The way I understand justice, it is about preserving the integrity of the rules of the community. That is the whole point of punishing 'bad behavior', i.e. it's bad from the perspective of community survival. I don't quite understand why 'social justice' is needed, i.e. why do we need to re-surface past conflicts between races, sexes, etc. It isn't needed for community survival. I understand when minorities, women, LGBT community, etc. want to empower themselves, but when it comes at the cost of taking away the power of the majority, that's when 'social justice' becomes problematic. A lot of times the fight for 'social justice' becomes about taking revenge for the past. This doesn't solve anything, in fact it perpetuates the same cycle of hatred and resentment.

What's really needed here is conflict-resolution on a mass scale. All parties involved need to be willing to come together and honestly resolve it. That won't happen if we cling to fighting for 'social justice'. It also won't happen if we try to manipulate this process for our own selfish ends.

But that is exactly the point, they are not willing to have that conversation because its uncomfortable for them. Where they do want to have the conversation is to prove that racism doesnt exist or that its unimportant, so then you get a debate which is essentially black people trying to prove their lived experiences to white people who dont believe them, which is a fruitless endeavour. What it boils down to is black people or any group want equality with the majority group. Granted theres not much we can do about implicit racial bias but it can at least be acknowledged. I dont see how any black people having equality takes away from anyone elses 'power' and even if it did is that a bad thing considering what their power is based upon? 

I think we have to look at this very clearly, the fact is that people who are in a position of privilege simply because they are the dominant race, sexuality, whatever, will most likely fight to keep that privilege as they are advantaged by it. This is a very simple matter of survival, as you said most dont know what compassion is, and as they are mainly interested in theirs and their peoples survival, it follows that they will attack anything that could threaten that. Hence why they would get triggered by any suggestion that they should lose it or be made worse off than they are. As i said the idea that black people are not protesting correctly or its their fault in some way, is just a way to divert and muddy the waters so they can easily dismiss them. If there was an intention to discuss, this is not the type of action that would be taken. The whole reason for the protests is black people do not feel as though theyre being listened to and if white people are in this survival mode then of course theyre not. Ultimately it comes down on the white people to listen, black people have tried every way you can think of to be heard, sometimes they have been, sometimes they havent, but either way they are the ones that have put in the work. 

[Forestluv]

37 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

What's really needed here is conflict-resolution on a mass scale. All parties involved need to be willing to come together and honestly resolve it. That won't happen if we cling to fighting for 'social justice'. 

How would you work with someone who denies the existence of systemic racism and is enabling systemic racism by undercutting efforts toward greater equality?

[Parththakkar12]

Just now, Forestluv said:

How would you work with someone who denies the existence of systemic racism and is enabling systemic racism by undercutting efforts toward greater equality?

Depends on the position of power of the person in question and what you're wanting from the whole struggle. Also depends on the specifics of the issue. In certain situations, you will have to fight.

I was talking about the video in question, where it shows white people who are unhappy with the movement and the general reaction of 'racist' white people and SJWs judging them for those reactions. This specific issue shows a resentment of white people towards BLM. They weren't technically denying systemic racism, they were expressing their dissatisfaction with how it was handled.

Were they racist? Yeah, but so is everyone else. Human beings are biased creatures. I don't agree with making an enemy of it if it isn't warranted, or it doesn't cause problems.

[Consept]

3 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

I was talking about the video in question, where it shows white people who are unhappy with the movement and the general reaction of 'racist' white people and SJWs judging them for those reactions. This specific issue shows a resentment of white people towards BLM. They weren't technically denying systemic racism, they were expressing their dissatisfaction with how it was handled.

Were they racist? Yeah, but so is everyone else. Human beings are biased creatures. I don't agree with making an enemy of it if it isn't warranted, or it doesn't cause problems.

So realistically you think there was a way that BLM couldve been handled that these people would have been ok with? 

Do you think there would have been a way for Jews to speak out about their persecution that Nazis wouldve listened to in the 1930s? (im not conflating the two)

People can feel how they feel but saying they shouldnt be called out for it i wouldnt agree with. 

[Parththakkar12]

8 minutes ago, Consept said:

So realistically you think there was a way that BLM couldve been handled that these people would have been ok with? 

Realistically, no. What happened was inevitable. Having said that, what's unrealistic today can be realistic tomorrow. I find that an inspiring vision to aim for.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Parththakkar12 said:

What's really needed here is conflict-resolution on a mass scale. All parties involved need to be willing to come together and honestly resolve it. That won't happen if we cling to fighting for 'social justice'.

That's exactly what will not happen.

The powerful and selfish have never given up their power willingly or nicely. They have always been forced into doing it.

Fighting for social justice is the only way you get justice. It's just a question of what form that fighting will take.

Historically, getting justice required killing people.

This does not mean I condone killing people for political gain. But historically that is how the powerful and selfish were put in their place.

[Consept]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Historically, getting justice required killing people.

This does not mean I condone killing people for political gain. But historically that is how the powerful and selfish were put in their place.

I think there will be an opportunity to avoid this, it will require older generations stuck in their beliefs dying and being phased, but i think the younger generation now and most likely the next few generations will move the left to be more mainstream. A lot of young people voted for Bernie Sanders and Jeremy Corbyn here in the UK so i think this provides hope. 

Globalisation will also inevitably leave nationalistic countries behind so that would be further incentive. Ultimately for now it will be capitalism and the markets that shift things, companies were quick to promote BLM when their bottom line was at stake. In fact several companies with links to slavery have looked at ways to address it. 

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Consept said:

I think there will be an opportunity to avoid this

Yes, but the reason I talk about killing is precisely to set proper expectations.

Because otherwise conservative types get outraged at a bit of looting or protesting on the streets. They don't realize how tame that is compared to a true bloodbath which would normally be the case.

Conservatives and neoliberals get offended by a bit of cancel culture when really, many people at the top deserve to get their balls cut off. Meanwhile people like Jordan Peterson act outraged by a few feminist college kids yelling at them. It's the height of snowflakery.

Conservatives manage to get outraged by NFL players taking a knee! It's fucking absurd how fragile they are.

[Roy]

On 7/30/2020 at 11:35 AM, Nak Khid said:

Here is a video from September of the reverse social experiment, the white guy gets attacked 

However, I don't think the black people doing this are thinking " black lives matter
other people's lives don't" as the dumb guy who made this video thinks 
They are probably thinking "of course  the majority lives matter, they run everything, what the hell is this sign doing trying to erase our suffering" . 
I was in a forum where people in Arkansas were made about the other video, the one in the opening post of this thread. 
They see it as a cherry picking of racist remarks to make them look bad. 

People are pushing back against the "All Lives Matter" crap because of what it is, a protest against a protest.

The kind of people that say, "but yeah ALL lives matter! How can you say just black lives matter that's racist!" don't actually care about minorities or the suffering that any group goes through (unless it ended up being their own of course). They never have. 

It's never even been in their periphery. They weren't fighting or protesting for ANYBODY before this. It's the perfect example of subconscious/closeted racism.

Think about it, black people can't even have their own protest about police brutality because some white idiots will think, "oh the blacks are getting all uppity again. Well since I'm annoying and I can't be blatantly racist like a southerner. I'm going to be a smart ass and hold up a sign to make THEM look racist!" lol.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Roy

[Forestluv]

@Parththakkar12 I would say in some contexts, allowing safe space for someone to grow is beneficial. As I’ve worked through my subconscious racial biases, those around me offered safe space to work through conditioned beliefs and patterns of behavior. If I was judged as a racist and shamed, I may have taken things personally and retreated. Yet for this dynamic to occur, there needs to be some openness and desire to learn and grow. Many people that have power and benefit from inequalities do not want to surrender power.

I also think marginalization and anti-racism action can be helpful. If I became aware of my subconscious racial biases and continued to consiciously express them and undercut societal progress toward equality, that is a very different context and should be handled differently, imo. In this context, the person needs to get called out and their harmful behavior marginalized as socially unacceptable. As well, there may need to be consequences. The difficulty is which power dynamics. How can someone without power hold someone with power accountable? This is one of the inequalities many people are protesting today and have protested throughout history. 

26 minutes ago, Roy said:

People are pushing back against the "All Lives Matter" crap because of what it is, a protest against a protest.

The kind of people that say, "but yeah ALL lives matter! How can you say just black lives matter that's racist!" don't actually care about minorities or the suffering that any group goes through (unless it ended up being their own of course). They never have. 

I like the metaphor that All Bones Matter in my body. If the doctor tells me that my femur bone is broke and I need a cast to help it heal, it would be absurd for me to respond “No!! All the bones in my body matter!! I refuse to wear a cast!!”. 

30 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Conservatives manage to get outraged by NFL players taking a knee! It's fucking absurd how fragile they are.

My Dad was a lifelong NFL and college football fan. Every weekend in Autumn revolved around football. He stopped watching football in outrage after players were allowed to take a knee. He canceled his All Access football subscription to “send a message”. He sees kneeling football players as anti-American. It’s absurd. I think part of the problem is his only news source is FoxNews. 

[Leo Gura]

42 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

My Dad was a lifelong NFL and college football fan. Every weekend in Autumn revolved around football. He stopped watching football in outrage after players were allowed to take a knee. He canceled his All Access football subscription to “send a message”. He sees kneeling football players as anti-American. It’s absurd. I think part of the problem is his only news source is FoxNews.

Hahahahahaha

Ignorance has no bottom.

[Gidiot]

@Forestluv Who knows? It may not be incremental change, maybe if Biden actually wins people will put a lot of pressure on him since the Overton window of the country is fairly more left than when Obama was in office and Joe has already seemingly been willing to make concessions. 
 

honestly I  hate that he has even one sexual assault allegation against him  but I also realize that morality is completely relative and sometimes the loving thing to do is vote for the best possible choice even though that choice is still problematic. I’m sure I’ll be able to vote for someone like a bernie or an AOC that actually inspires me soon but I definitely empath size with all of the lefties who just cannot vote for Biden. Usually they have pretty high standards which I think is a good thing, I’m very skeptical that the Green Party will ever have a voice in the US and to some extent voting for that is a throw away vote but voting for a Green Party is better than not voting at all, That’s the real problem, it’s not people who vote for Jill Stein or Gary Johnson it’s people who don’t vote at all

Edited August 4, 2020 by Gidiot

[Forestluv]

4 minutes ago, Gidiot said:

@Forestluv Who knows? It may not be incremental change, maybe if Biden actually wins people will put a lot of pressure on him since the Overton window of the country if fairly more left than Obama was in office and Joe has already seemingly been willing to make concessions. 

I think that is possible, especially if things get more painful with the Covid, racial and wealth inequality crises. Before long, there will be millions of homeless people on one side of the street looking at millions of empty apartments on the other side of the street. That is untenable. 

I think Joe is much more sympathetic to progressive issues than Trump. I think progressives are much better off fighting Biden for change than Trump. I think Biden has some sense of empathy and open-mindedness. He isn’t a sadistic, narcissistic sociopath like Trump. That seems to be the best campaign slogan for Biden. 

[Gidiot]

@Forestluv yea that was incredibly obvious to me. I thought maybe in 2019 that it was good that Hillary lost cause it would set the stage for Bernie, but I can’t take another 4 years of chaos, I know my life hasn’t really been personally effected by covid or trumps policies, but I sure as hell want a better life for my fellow humans. 

electoral politics has probably turned a lot of people off and I’m seeing much much more apathy than last election, however I’m fairly confident that Biden can pull it out just because people really despise 45.

i would not like it though if they had no debates, I actually think it would be interesting to watch, to see how out of touch both of them are.

[Call Me Whatever]

I'm sorry, but there is nothing brave or stunning about this street theater. BLM is promoted by the entire cultural, political, and corporate structure. Billions of dollars are poured into it. 

This guy is not speaking Truth to Power in any way whatsoever; he's genuflecting to it while triggering the demoralized. 

[Forestluv]

9 minutes ago, Call Me Whatever said:

I'm sorry, but there is nothing brave or stunning about this street theater. BLM is promoted by the entire cultural, political, and corporate structure. Billions of dollars are poured into it. 

I’ve gone to protests and have had long conversations with protestors. What you are describing is not consistent with what I learned from them. From my POV, you are missing something. 

[Call Me Whatever]

@Leo Gura "They don't realize how tame that is compared to a true bloodbath"

I think we should keep in mind the extreme brutality the political right is capable of, with history being our guide. 

[Call Me Whatever]

@Forestluv My point is none of these people are going to face de-platforming, job loss, two minutes hate, loss of reputation, doxxing, etc., for promoting a program supported by every organ of power in society. In other words, there is no risk whatsoever for its promotion. 

These same people would be giving Hitler the roman salute had they been born in that era.