I've been bamboozled, by myself!

[meow_meow]

So I've been on this journey of self help for about a year now and been meditating almost daily for ~6 months now (30 mins).
~5 months ago I started doing +- serious enlightenment work by doing self-enquiry every other day, sometimes daily (40mins).

No psychedelics.

Recently I managed to get trough the phase of asking questions "Who am I?" "What is I?" What are thoughts, what is that voice in my head, what is language?" etc. 
And managed to get to the phase of just "looking" or focusing on direct experience without active thoughts (Atleast for periods up to ~1min x maybe 3-5 times during my session)

I thought that, this is it - I've finally managed to realise what is this "I" "What am I?" (container of previous experience, thoughts->emotions, story, beliefs etc)
and focused on direct experience. I've experienced existential terror when I managed to temporarily remove the I from myself, or atleast deatach from it up to ~1min during my sessions.

Anyway, today while doing self-enquiry I realised that I've been chasing my own tail all this time.

I've been asking myself who am I? I finally really realized what do you guys mean when you say "Who's asking?" Well - That same nasty little pecker who's acting that it doesn't know who is "I" is the "I" itself! It's sort of paradoxical. 

So my question is -  Am I finally on the right track? - is this the end of the verbal "phase" and further includes only observing the "I" without thinking about it?
Any tips? Thanks.

[seeking_brilliance]

When the thought language broke down, what remained? Any feelings that needed to peiced together into words afterwards? What exactly do you remember about the experience of looking, and how do you remember it? 

[meow_meow]

7 minutes ago, seeking_brilliance said:

When the thought language broke down, what remained? Any feelings that needed to peiced together into words afterwards? What exactly do you remember about the experience of looking, and how do you remember it? 

I had a visualization of me sitting where I was sitting but with no identity, just a piece of meat with a psyche, no different than a chair or a table, or any other object. As soon as I felt that I got so scared, anxious and terriefied that I stopped my session - however, this was ~2-3 weeks ago.

This realisation of "bamboozled by myself" happened today ~4 hours ago.

Edited July 28, 2020 by meow_meow

[meow_meow]

This picture is acurate of how I picture my current situation. 

I am aware that I am is asking myself "who am I?"  But this "I" is itself the one who is asking and the one it is looking for, both at the same time.

It's like I'm playing hide and seek with myself!

But at times when I'm able to silence the voice and thoughts and there is no personality, identity aka "I" .. Who is aware? To be honest I can't even in words find the right question to ask. I'm just confused about what to .. experience? Look at? while in this state.

[peanutspathtotruth]

31 minutes ago, meow_meow said:

This picture is acurate of how I picture my current situation. 

I am aware that I am is asking myself "who am I?"  But this "I" is itself the one who is asking and the one it is looking for, both at the same time.

It's like I'm playing hide and seek with myself!

But at times when I'm able to silence the voice and thoughts and there is no personality, identity aka "I" .. Who is aware? To be honest I can't even in words find the right question to ask. I'm just confused about what to .. experience? Look at? while in this state.

A good question for this stage, which I found through Fred Davis is this:

- When everything else is gone, what is left?

It's a pointer from Nisargadatta, and it's one of the most powerful questions for me. Take all there is, all that is perceived, even the perceiver, and look -> what is it that remains beyond all that? This goes beyond non-duality to the big emptiness, the Absolute

[meow_meow]

13 hours ago, peanutspathtotruth said:

A good question for this stage, which I found through Fred Davis is this:

- When everything else is gone, what is left?

It's a pointer from Nisargadatta, and it's one of the most powerful questions for me. Take all there is, all that is perceived, even the perceiver, and look -> what is it that remains beyond all that? This goes beyond non-duality to the big emptiness, the Absolute

Thanks, that really is a great pointer.

However - you mentioned to remove "even the perceiver" by this I asume that you mean this body and this "I" as a perciever?
Or did you mean that heck knows what that somehow percieves what this body percieves?

[traveler]

This is the beautiful futility of the search. The "I" seeks it's own absence which counterintuitively fuels it's own existence. See, the individual is illusory it isn't actually there, its whole existence is one huge questionmark. The impossibility for the individual is that it already is what is looked for, appearing as an individual looking for it. An apparent separate entity looking for everything. This is unacceptable for the individual because it is looking for a state in which that "it" will get enlightened and peaceful and so on. This has nothing to do with you, what happened for @traveler is similar to what is apparently happening for @meow_meow. The search got so strong that on an existential level the hopelessness of the search was recognised. There is no "and then" there is no answer, the questioner dies, the mystery lives on, apparently.

[meow_meow]

3 hours ago, traveler said:

This is the beautiful futility of the search. The "I" seeks it's own absence which counterintuitively fuels it's own existence. See, the individual is illusory it isn't actually there, its whole existence is one huge questionmark. The impossibility for the individual is that it already is what is looked for, appearing as an individual looking for it. An apparent separate entity looking for everything. This is unacceptable for the individual because it is looking for a state in which that "it" will get enlightened and peaceful and so on. This has nothing to do with you, what happened for @traveler is similar to what is apparently happening for @meow_meow. The search got so strong that on an existential level the hopelessness of the search was recognised. There is no "and then" there is no answer, the questioner dies, the mystery lives on, apparently.

So this is what Leo means by "You are a strange loop" - This "I" who's looking for itself, while being itself?

Also, who or what creates this illusion "I"?
If it's an illusion - should it be killed? Is the point to literally kill myself? (Not physically ofc)

[Nahm]

@meow_meow

“Bamboozled” lol. Fits so well. ?? 

[peanutspathtotruth]

12 hours ago, meow_meow said:

Thanks, that really is a great pointer.

However - you mentioned to remove "even the perceiver" by this I asume that you mean this body and this "I" as a perciever?
Or did you mean that heck knows what that somehow percieves what this body percieves?

You don't "remove" anything. You can't remove what is not real anyway. To put it more practically: When you see that you are not anything you can perceive, then see that the "you" you are looking for is nowhere to be found, what remains? You can't do this, you can only undo everything you're already doing.

Regarding your specific question, I like what Sunyamurti says in one of his guided meditations: "drop the need to have an observer of all of this".

Basically, just listen to what is beyond all mental movement. It is self-revealing. In short, it's a non-effort approach, but with an inherent, non-mental curiosity for what is actually true. So no dull unconscious sleep, rather a present, focused awareness without mental movement (which means, even when there is mental movement, just don't "add" anything to what is already there).

I hope this is helpful in some way.

[meow_meow]

8 hours ago, peanutspathtotruth said:

You don't "remove" anything. You can't remove what is not real anyway. To put it more practically: When you see that you are not anything you can perceive, then see that the "you" you are looking for is nowhere to be found, what remains? You can't do this, you can only undo everything you're already doing.

Regarding your specific question, I like what Sunyamurti says in one of his guided meditations: "drop the need to have an observer of all of this".

Basically, just listen to what is beyond all mental movement. It is self-revealing. In short, it's a non-effort approach, but with an inherent, non-mental curiosity for what is actually true. So no dull unconscious sleep, rather a present, focused awareness without mental movement (which means, even when there is mental movement, just don't "add" anything to what is already there).

I hope this is helpful in some way.

Yes, of course this is helpfull, I'll integrate this into my meditation sessions.

But what about self-enquiry .. What to do with "I"?

I mean even tho I've spent months bamboozling myself -  looping trough the cycle of looking for "I" while "I" was itself the one who's looking for itself.

But it still is here. By this I mean that I still feel a sense of seperation from other things, I still turn my head when someone says my name. I still continue to do self development exercises improoving the various areas in life of the "I".

Should I just turn down the mental chatter and stop looking for "I" ? Continue focusing on the current experience? Or should I continue questioning?

[nistake]

A huge trap of self-inquiry when you're trying to find a intellectual answer to the question of Who/What Am I?

It took me a long time to realize that I don't need to find an answer. These questions are not to be answered. They can only lead you to the source/awareness/consciousness. As soon as "you get there", drop everything and just observe and keep your relaxed attention on the "I" sense. If your attention wanders or thoughts pop up, just ask again and stay there. Rinse and repeat.

Check out this channel. This guy has tons of videos about self-inquiry and explains it really well:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuyKuowJW8WqMl-sckc0tjg

I also got a really useful advice from this guy, which is: "Recognize that “focusing on I” is not an outward focus. It is the lack of attention going outward. Awareness being aware that it is aware. Stay there."

[meow_meow]

Just now, nistake said:

A huge trap of self-inquiry when you're trying to find a intellectual answer to the question of Who/What Am I?

It took me a long time to realize that I don't need to find an answer. These questions are not to be answered. They can only lead you to the source/awareness/consciousness. As soon as "you get there", drop everything and just observe and keep your relaxed attention on the "I" sense. If your attention wanders or thoughts pop up, just ask again and stay there. Rinse and repeat.

Check out this channel. This guy has tons of videos about self-inquiry and explains it really well:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuyKuowJW8WqMl-sckc0tjg

I also got a really useful advice from this guy, which is: "Recognize that “focusing on I” is not an outward focus. It is the lack of attention going outward. Awareness being aware that it is aware. Stay there."

This is helpfull, 

But Isn't focusing attention on the thought/sense of "I" is yet again "I" just looking at "I" and "I" creating "I" ? Isn't it the same never ending cycle?
In fact this is what I'm actually doing while self-enquiring. 

[nistake]

@meow_meow I think you're making this more difficult than it needs to be.

1. You can't really use logic and you can't solve this intellectually (ego finds this really hard to accept but this is the truth)

2. Get familiar with the unknown. Not-knowing is your greatest asset in this work.

3. Try to stay present as much as possible. If you become aware of something (some sort of answer), it's not it, no matter how pleasant/scary/upsetting it is.

If you happen to get enlightened, you'll know it in a visceral way and the realization won't be an intellectual answer. I know, paradoxes are everywhere, but that's how it is

Edited July 30, 2020 by nistake

[meow_meow]

28 minutes ago, nistake said:

@meow_meow I think you're making this more difficult than it needs to be.

1. You can't really use logic and you can't solve this intellectually (ego finds this really hard to accept but this is the truth)

2. Get familiar with the unknown. Not-knowing is your greatest asset in this work.

3. Try to stay present as much as possible. If you become aware of something (some sort of answer), it's not it, no matter how pleasant/scary/upsetting it is.

If you happen to get enlightened, you'll know it in a visceral way and the realization won't be an intellectual answer. I know, paradoxes are everywhere, but that's how it is

Ahhh. Alright, I was more or less on the right track then, but overthinking about it is how I made it more compicated.
Thanks mate, I still lol at your signature tho.