Using Spiral Dynamics to Help Get Sex Offenders Punished?

[AlwaysBeNice]

4 minutes ago, Consciousone35 said:

Pizzagate is a load of crap. Also sex offenders aren’t mentally ill, they simply crave power over others and lack empathy

Yeah that's what I thought as well.

You hear on all the news: 'oh shooter walks in restaurant because of 4 chan conspiracy that hAs nO EvidDencee'.

Sure. No evidence. Uhuh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvHfR-W4U5s

[Consciousone35]

5 minutes ago, integral said:

@Consciousone35 

Why are they the way they are? How did they become abusers?

Most of them come from broken childhoods, they received very little love from there parents and society, they where likely abused them selves as children. Why didnt they receive enough love? If we can fix this we can prevent people from becoming abusers. How do we fix this? 

Many sex offenders have criminal backgrounds so yes, poor childhoods contribute to increased sexual assault. Doing societal social engineering that discourages child abuse could help then. Such as ad campaigns that show how child abuse literally  leads to shrunken brains. That would require putting money into and creating such campaigns. Perhaps I could help form movements that are against child abuse?

[integral]

@Consciousone35 How would this prevent children from receiving bad childhoods?

Edited July 29, 2020 by integral

[Carl-Richard]

21 minutes ago, Consciousone35 said:

I don’t see how someone who’s life wasn’t any worse than anyone else’s was once a victim.

One way to get a better picture of how an abuser can also be the victim, try to remove the victim of the abuser from the analysis. We have to drop all types comparisons to other people who may have it worse. It creates an unnecessary constrast and directs the focus away from what we're trying to investigate. Let's also make the example as non-extreme as possible to really pinpoint the issue:

Let's say a person grows up as a totally average person: no childhood abuse, no economic struggles, decent upbringing and social life. This person is by all means a well-functioning member of society, but one day, he realizes he has an unsatiable urge that he cannot control. He tries all he can to fight it, but he ends up acting on it. This eventually ends up having a very negative impact for the person. Is this man a victim?

What if I told you he is not a pedophile but instead a person suffering from severe OCD and cannot stop himself from performing actions that eventually have a very negative impact on his life? On what basis can you honestly distinguish between these two cases, OCD and pedophilia, in terms of victimhood of the "perpetrator"?

[Consciousone35]

5 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

One way to get a better picture of how an abuser can also be the victim, try to remove the victim of the abuser from the analysis. We have to drop all types comparisons to other people who may have it worse. It creates an unnecessary constrast and directs the focus away from what we're trying to investigate. Let's also make the example as non-extreme as possible to really pinpoint the issue:

Let's say a person grows up as a totally average person: no childhood abuse, no economic struggles, decent upbringing and social life. This person is by all means a well-functioning member of society, but one day, he realizes he has an unsatiable urge that he cannot control. He tries all he can to fight it, but he ends up acting on it. This eventually ends up having a very negative impact for the person. Is this man a victim?

What if I told you he is not a pedophile but instead a person suffering from severe OCD and cannot stop himself from performing actions that eventually have a very negative impact on his life? On what basis can you honestly distinguish between these two cases, OCD and pedophilia, in terms of victimhood of the "perpetrator"?

Pedophilia is completely different from OCD. Pedophilia is a sexual disorder. Interestingly there are pedophiles who don’t molest children and actually are against those who do, I believe they’re called “virtuous pedophiles.” It appears that those who commit sexual assault view others as simply being objects. I think perhaps starting movements to reduce child abuse could help lower the rate of sexual assault. Also creating a #metoo 2.0 could help create a culture where sexual predators become too scared and where victims more easily report.

[integral]

11 minutes ago, Consciousone35 said:

Pedophilia is completely different from OCD. Pedophilia is a sexual disorder. Interestingly there are pedophiles who don’t molest children and actually are against those who do, I believe they’re called “virtuous pedophiles.” It appears that those who commit sexual assault view others as simply being objects. I think perhaps starting movements to reduce child abuse could help lower the rate of sexual assault. Also creating a #metoo 2.0 could help create a culture where sexual predators become too scared and where victims more easily report.

These are all fear tactics, we dont need more fear, we need more love. Leos response earlier was on point. How do we give more love and support to unlucky children so they dont become abusers? Focus on the foundation of our society, if we made some changes what kind of systemic effects would that cause? 

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

There is no way you're going to stop sexual abuse directly. You can't insert yourself into everyone's bedroom.

The way to stop sexual abuse is by improving society as a whole, by creating a more conscious, loving, and fair society so that everyone is respected and supported, so that no one is  left out, so that people are emotionally healthy and compassionate towards each other.

One of the best ways to reduce sexual abuse is by creating a more equal economic situation where no one is left behind.

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by integral

[Carl-Richard]

10 minutes ago, Consciousone35 said:

Pedophilia is completely different from OCD.

That is obvious, and that is not the point. I gave you an analogy, not an equivalence. My point is if you can be a victim of your own OCD, you can also be a victim of your own pedophilia. You keep dragging in other victims into the analysis which I specifically asked you not to do, because it skews the picture and devolves into moralizing  

If somebody is a "virtuous pedophile", that still makes them a victim of their own "virtuous pedophilia". If somebody is an "unvirtuous pedophile", then they're a victim of "unvirtuous pedophilia". This isn't to deny the severity of their crimes. It's simply to reveal a bigger picture.

Edited July 29, 2020 by Carl-Richard

[Consciousone35]

3 minutes ago, integral said:

These are all fear tactics, we dont need more fear, we need more love. Leos response earlier was on point. 

 

If you would simply throw “love” at the man I got a permanent record on, he would probably just laugh or play along. The thing is child abuse and a poor upbringing can lead to not even being able to feel love. By creating things like better wealth equality and stigmatizing humanity’s secret war on itself that is child abuse  we can help to reduce the number of people who become sexual predators however the sex offenders of this era are too far gone. Throwing love at them won’t be effective at all, making sure they get sent to the human zoo if they commit crimes can help them become reluctant to sexually assault people because they fear the consequences. Currently literally no consequences exist for many sexual offenders.

[integral]

@Consciousone35 The adult abuser is already a lost cause, we are not talking about rehabilitating them, we want to prevent the entire thing from happening to begin with. The love is for the children so they dont become abusers. 

How do we give more love and support to unlucky children so they dont become abusers? Focus on the foundation of our society, if we made some changes what kind of systemic effects would that cause? 

Justice and punishment wont solve anything.

Think long term results. 

Edited July 29, 2020 by integral

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Consciousone35 said:

Pedophiles and sex offenders see people as simply objects that provide them with sexual gratification.

That's your projection. You have no clue how they actually see the world.

Moreover, most living beings see other living beings as objects to meet their survival needs. So your criticism amounts to nothing more than that "people are selfish". Which of course they are. The question is, how do you help people to transcend their selfishness?

[Consciousone35]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

That's your projection. You have no clue how they actually see the world.

There have been studies that show how pedophiles view the world, interviews with them, etc.

[Leo Gura]

@Consciousone35 You're really just talking about selfishness, and avoiding drawing the connection between the selfishness of criminals and your own selfishness.

What you're doing is classic projection.

[Lyubov]

This is a pretty low quality approach to the issue at hand. Don't take people's criticism in here as indifference to not caring about this serious issue. It's just your moralistic, rigid approach and crusade like way of going about it that has been proven to be ineffective. It's the equivalent to the war on drugs. As a society we most def can heal this aspect of humanity but it isn't going to come with one fix all solution. It's going to have to be approached from several angles... increased education and programs, trauma informed and vastly expanded mental health approaches, more economic opportunities, further open minded research on the issue, rehabilitation focused justice system and less judgement from society. One of the issues is that judgement is not so effective at protecting and healing. It is a lower tier form of protection so to some degree it is needed if it is where a society is at but if we wish to transcend this problem we have to move onto healthier systems to heal it. I would say on the very rare occasion there is one perpetrator, due to reasons out of my knowledge, perhaps psychopath mindset from a fossil of human survival, who just totally lacks any sort of emotional faculty or is completely incapable of control over themselves and thus can never be rehabilitated and with them all we can do is keep them securely away from the public for the remainder of their life on this here earthly plane... but for the vast majority of perpetrators I believe they can be healed.

Edited July 29, 2020 by Lyubov

[Consciousone35]

1 minute ago, Lyubov said:

This is a pretty low quality approach to the issue at hand. Don't take people's criticism in here as indifference to not caring about this serious issue. It's just your moralistic, rigid approach and crusade like way of going about it that has been proven to be ineffective. It's the equivalent to the war on drugs. As a society we most def can heal this aspect of humanity but it isn't going to come with one fix all solution. It's going to have to be approached from several angles... increased education and programs, trauma informed and vastly expanded mental health approaches, more economic opportunities, further open minded research on the issue, rehabilitation focused justice system and less judgement from society. One of the issues is that judgement is not so effective at protecting and healing. It is a lower tier form of protection so to some degree it is needed if it is where a society is at but if we wish to transcend this problem we have to move onto healthier systems to heal it. I would say on the very rare occasion there is one perpetrator, due to reasons out of my knowledge, perhaps psychopathy from a fossil of human survival, who just totally lacks any sort of emotional faculty or is completely incapable of control over themselves and thus can never be rehabilitated and with them all we can do is keep them securely away from the public for the remainder of their life on this here earthly plane... but for the vast majority of perpetrators I believe they can be healed.

I honestly don’t think most sex offenders can be healed, only get scared into not harming anybody. For example we know that it is impossible to cure psychopathy and pedophilia

[Lyubov]

1 minute ago, Consciousone35 said:

I honestly don’t think most sex offenders can be healed, only get scared into not harming anybody. For example we know that it is impossible to cure psychopathy and pedophilia

this is why you won't be effective at your goals. you lack way too little holistic perspective and have quickly already made up your mind. you're basically wanting to crack a giant rock with a tiny chisel instead of using your mind to create a machine that would be more effective at doing so.

[Consciousone35]

Just now, Lyubov said:

this is why you won't be effective at your goals. you lack way too little holistic perspective and have quickly already made up your mind. you're basically wanting to crack a giant rock with a tiny chisel instead of using your mind to create a machine that would be more effective at doing so.

How is noting that it’s literally impossible to cure psychopathy and pedophilia ineffective thinking? Maybe in the future we could create some technology that can alter the brain of a psychopath or a pedophile to cure them but currently with what we have it’s impossible. No current psychological technique, spiritual practice, or technology can cure psychopathy or pedophilia.

[integral]

12 minutes ago, Consciousone35 said:

I honestly don’t think most sex offenders can be healed, only get scared into not harming anybody. For example we know that it is impossible to cure psychopathy and pedophilia

Repeating the same thing over and over again instead of making progress. 

[integral]

 

Watch this and apply all of it to this situation. The only path forward is to do the hard work. 

[Consciousone35]

8 minutes ago, integral said:

 

Watch this and apply all of it to this situation. The only path forward is to do the hard work. 

I actually look forward to doing the hard work and using spiral dynamics to fight sexual assault. I’ll watch the video and see what I can take away from it

Edited July 29, 2020 by Consciousone35

[integral]

19 minutes ago, Consciousone35 said:

I actually look forward to doing the hard work and using spiral dynamics to fight sexual assault

We are all trying to help you succeed by pointing to the best possible path forward. It might of come off as if we are attacking you, this is not the case, We truly want to see you succeed. 

Fighting sexual assault with more punishment and fear is a blue path. Depending on the cultures your going to be working with, this method will not work. Orange cultures need orange solutions, green cultures need green solution.... 

A yellow solution solves the root cause of the problem. In this case to solve the problem means educating and improving the quality of lives of children, this will lower the number of abusers vai nurture. To do this we need to improve society as a whole. Everything else is a waist of time. 

Edited July 29, 2020 by integral