Billionaires & Jeff Bezos Wealth

[LfcCharlie4]

I saw this story on Twitter about Jeff Bezos increase in wealth yesterday:

https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/jeff-bezos-13-billion-net-worth-increase-amazon-elon-musk-steve-ballmer.html

Of course, as Twitter is basically an extreme lefty / communist bubble, most of the replies were coming from a Communist perspective, which of course make some great points regarding no 1 human being should be able to hoard this much health, but are mostly coming from a bleeding heart stage green perspective, which as we know often lacks the nuance and ability to come up with systemic solutions except the likes of 'he could solve world hunger with his money!' as if solving systematic issues on a global scale was that easy. Basically all the rebuttals were from a tier 1 perspective, either stage Green, or a Blue/ Orange 'there's nothing wrong with this' response, many had elements of truth & falsehood, but I wanted to come here to try and get some tier 2 responses to this situation. 

Personally, I am the furthest thing from a communist, and believe we should more seek the goal of Equality of Opportunity, not Equality of Outcome, and see extreme communism as 2 sides of the same coin along with extreme fascism, and imagine it would actually work in the elites favor in terms of control. 

In terms of Billionaires, the only real solution I could see is some sort of cap & raising of their consciousness so they wouldn't want to heard mass amounts of wealth, and instead would want to use it to help push humanity forward in numerous ways, for example investing in grass roots projects, increasing wages of their staff, better working conditions etc etc. I don't believe a cap on companies would work as well, but certainly a prevention of having too much control like Amazon does now, and the ability to evade taxes and what not. 

I also definitely do not share the opinion of Commies that all profit is 'theft' lmao, and that business owners don't deserve more money, to me that just shows a lack of understanding of basic economics, and the actual work that goes into owning and running any kind of business. I'm not saying the level of difference we see right now is fair at all, hence why I'm making this thread, but I feel there are better solutions to be found in Yellow/ Turquoise thinkers, than just the typical Green equality of outcome response, but of course they raise great points on the problems, they just seem unable to articulate nuanced solutions most of the time in my experience and become very ideological when you disagree with them, and also have a 'herd' mentality, making having any sort of reasoned discussion very difficult. 

So, what are your guys thoughts on this issue and Billionaires in general and how we could make the inequality smaller ideally from a tier 2 perspective. 

 

[Leo Gura]

Taxes, taxes, taxes.

It's that simple.

He can have plenty of wealth, but it should be significantly taxed. There's no need to demonize billionaires. Admire them but tax them appropriately.

 

[Roy]

15 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

So, what are your guys thoughts on this issue and Billionaires in general and how we could make the inequality smaller ideally from a tier 2 perspective. 

I'm not educated enough to really know the solution, my intuition says higher/more nuanced taxation?

I feel like these inequality issues are more of the result of the money cult that our society is, so it's a mentality/cultural problem more than a resource distribution one.

For example when you say;

15 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

we should more seek the goal of Equality of Opportunity, not Equality of Outcome

I agree in principle. However I think this Libertarian attitude is incomplete and ignorant of considering the possibility that in order to even facilitate the circumstances that lead to people all having an "equality of opportunity", we will need to spread out things and shore up the "Outcomes" prior.

It's counter-intuitive which is exactly why people are hesitant to do it.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Roy

[LfcCharlie4]

@Roy Yeah, I agree, but I just don't agree with the communist attitude of everyone deserves the same and never will I'm afraid, but I definitely agree the inequality gap we see in society needs to be addressed, although if I'm honest I see communism being used to further centralize power and control as humanities current level of consciousness. 

@Leo Gura Sounds like the fairest solutions, It seems in the current climate most small business owners end up paying more taxes than the likes of Amazon, which is absurd. 

Are you talking about a progressive level of taxation? 

[Roy]

23 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

Yeah, I agree, but I just don't agree with the communist attitude of everyone deserves the same and never will I'm afraid, but I definitely agree the inequality gap we see in society needs to be addressed, although if I'm honest I see communism being used to further centralize power and control as humanities current level of consciousness. 

I don't mean for this to sound condescending or as any attack, but you do understand the difference between Communism and Socialism right? I just see people throw around the word "communist" a lot but the modern left that gets grouped together and talked about these days is not communist. At least not the majority of them, I'm sure you can find some radical communists among the general left somewhere.

I don't like where it's going either but we have to make the distinction to admit it's still a democratic movement at the core, even if it's happening a little sloppily (Cancel Culture, Political Correctness, etc.).

Not that you're doing this too blatantly I think you're a sharp guy, I just think it's a little intellectually dishonest to associate modern progressives with the AK-47 weilding Bolsheviks from 1917 lol.

Just as most modern "alt-right/fascists" shouldn't be equated at every opportunity to the Nazis.

This kind of hyperbole doesn't do anyone any good and makes discussion nearly impossible.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Roy

[LfcCharlie4]

@Roy Of course, in fact I was heavily in favor of Bernie & Corbyn last year, for a while at least. 

I am not associating modern progressives with Communists, but if you go and venture onto Twitter you will be surprised how many 'Progressives' generally say things such as- 'All profit is unethical', 'private property should be abolished', 'if you're not a communist you're a bad person' etc etc

That's why I made the distinction that these aren't USSR communists, but the Stage Green bleeding heart types. 

My issue was that everyone takes things so black and white, hence where my post came from. I know the majority are not hard communists, but being young and around young people, and seeing the kind of University politics we do in the UK, if you basically have any other opinion other than 'Hard Left' you kind of get ostracized. Genuinely, people are afraid to admit they voted for the conservatives, in fear of being ridiculed, to me, everyone has the right to their opinion, and should not be in fear of personal attacks because of that opinion, of course if they are inciting hate speech & what not, that is a different matter. 

My overall point is that most seem to look at things in extremes or black and whites, instead of realizing the benefits and drawbacks to each system.

Like I said, I look forward to a day when we don't have to see things in 'Left/Right' and everyone seems to be divided, but a day where we can work together and debate healthily to find the best outcomes in each situation, instead of 'If you don't agree with me, we will ridicule you.' 

I, too share your concerns hugely regarding PC, cancel culture & also Free Speech. 

And, just to be clear, I have no political affiliation, I guess I used to be somewhat of a leftist, but if I'm honest the lack of empathy and ability to listen to other people's opinions in that bubble worries me, as well as the inability to accept a loss (Brexit) seemed all but democratic to me. Like, I said, I look forward to the day where we aren't all divided by the simple notions of 'Left vs Right' 'Communist vs Capitalist' and fall into ideology and division.

[Apparition of Jack]

@LfcCharlie4 A lot of college-educated leftists / communists hold to that worldview because it grants them the most individual power/survival. It's interesting to note that most communist revolutions in history were led by middle class / lower aristocrats, but not either the working class or upper class / higher aristocrats. This is because a middle class person will generally be educated enough to see the flaws in the system they live under (unlike a working class person) but at the same time not directly benefit from the system (the way an upper-class person would), and then not have any real meaningful political power to do anything about it, leaving them feeling frustrated and upset in the process. By aligning themselves with the communist worldview, not only do they find an outlet to correct the perceived wrongs of the world (wealth inequality, worker exploitation, etc.) but also an avenue to maximising their own power/survival, since any communist society will need well-educated people to lead it, but people who don't have the material or political interests in prevent a communist revolution in the first place.

It's crazy how much survival dictates our behaviour. If you learn to grasp how deep the survival motivation goes, a lot of politics makes wayy more sense.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Apparition of Jack

[LfcCharlie4]

@Apparition of Jack Good way of looking at it for sure. 

I guess this is also why they eventually 'grow out' of this phase. 

[Tanz]

@LfcCharlie4 Well... the other way to look at it which is how they probably look at it is, they are already doing society a purpose by creating jobs and running a company that serves society. I am not justifying their greed but just offering their possible perspective.  

[Leo Gura]

8 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

Are you talking about a progressive level of taxation?

Of course.

We need a special of tier of higher taxes for large multi-national corporations.

We need stronger enforcement of existing tax laws and eliminating of loopholes.

We need to stop all off-shore tax havens.

We need to raise capital gains taxes.

We need tiers of wealth taxes on wealth over $10 million, $100 million, $1 billion, $10 billion, and $100 billion.

We need to tax luxury and elite goods more. Stuff like yachts, jets, expensive jewelry, expensive mansions, private islands, fur coats, exotic cars, expensive wine, etc.

We need much higher estate and inheritance taxes.

We need to tax 2nd, 3rd, and 4th homes at ever higher rates for each new home. If you're buying a 4th home you should be paying 75% of that in tax.

[Moon]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course.

We need a special of tier of higher taxes for large multi-national corporations.

We need stronger enforcement of existing tax laws and eliminating of loopholes.

We need to stop all off-shore tax havens.

We need to raise capital gains taxes.

We need tiers of wealth taxes on wealth over $10 million, $100 million, $1 billion, $10 billion, and $100 billion.

We need to tax luxury and elite goods more. Stuff like yachts, jets, expensive jewelry, expensive mansions, private islands, fur coats, exotic cars, expensive wine, etc.

We need much higher estate and inheritance taxes.

We need to tax 2nd, 3rd, and 4th homes at ever higher rates for each new home. If you're buying a 4th home you should be paying 75% of that in tax.

This!! cos yeah taxing is the answer but these pesky geezers are always getting away with not following the rules

[jennjenn00]

@Leo Gura why so many poor and middle class people feel so hesitant about taxing the rich? 

[Moon]

11 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

Twitter is basically an extreme lefty / communist bubble

hahaha for sure, It's either this or racist lil boys with football DPs 

I also have seen countless popular activist accounts who have extreme mental health issues (e.g. depression/suicidal stuff) which may or may not be the cause or effect of the ferocious ideology spewing, which sucks 

Quote

which as we know often lacks the nuance and ability to come up with systemic solutions except the likes of 'he could solve world hunger with his money!' as if solving systematic issues on a global scale was that easy.

lmao, yeah I posted a video recently relating to something similar regarding charities on the stage yellow thread

Quote

Personally, I am the furthest thing from a communist, and believe we should more seek the goal of Equality of Opportunity, not Equality of Outcome, and see extreme communism as 2 sides of the same coin along with extreme fascism, and imagine it would actually work in the elites favor in terms of control. 

I agree and I like your thinking

 

I don't know if I'm tier 2, probs a mixture of orange/green/yellow rn

I do think it's CRAZY how big the difference between a millionaire and billionaire is though, I definitely don't see any issues of there being millionaires or multi-millionaires...but the concept of billionaires is crazy (I didn't know this till recently lol) 

I wouldn't see any issue with there being billionaires if everyone else in the country/world had AT LEAST access to basic survival necessities such as food, clean water, shelter etc

ofc as you mentioned, there's no simple solution to these things though

 

But I agree with the taxing solution above with heavy penalties for those who don't abide 

could be tricky since being a "billionaire" grants you power as well as wealth, so I feel as long as we have unconscious leaders, these people will be able to get away with not paying taxes like they should be

 

[TrustTheProcess]

@jennjenn00 lack of education of wealth inequality and lack of general consciousness

[LfcCharlie4]

@Moon I basically agree 100% with everything you said haha. 
 

I personally am aiming to become a millionaire and create huge amounts of wealth by creating conscious businesses, but would accept higher tax rates as wealth progressively increased, to me that’s fair, as long as the tax $ are being used fairly of course.

Yeah I’m a huge football fan, and you’ve nailed exactly what Twitter is lmao. 
 

when you’re in that state, the lure of an ideology (especially like communism) is so great as it acts as a kind of saving grace & can even deter from doing inner work, and blaming something else. 
 

And, yes people should be allowed to create however much wealth they want, as long as people have fair access to basic necessities! 
 

40 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course.

We need a special of tier of higher taxes for large multi-national corporations.

We need stronger enforcement of existing tax laws and eliminating of loopholes.

We need to stop all off-shore tax havens.

We need to raise capital gains taxes.

We need tiers of wealth taxes on wealth over $10 million, $100 million, $1 billion, $10 billion, and $100 billion.

We need to tax luxury and elite goods more. Stuff like yachts, jets, expensive jewelry, expensive mansions, private islands, fur coats, exotic cars, expensive wine, etc.

We need much higher estate and inheritance taxes.

We need to tax 2nd, 3rd, and 4th homes at ever higher rates for each new home. If you're buying a 4th home you should be paying 75% of that in tax.

We have a long way to go. 
 

A lot of these would be implemented with 2 things.

1) Increasing consciousness of humanity, thus increasing love 

2) Reducing corruption at the very elite levels of society, people don’t realise how corrupt the world is, it’s unreal! 
 

Im guessing you mean living in these 2nd, 3rd homes & not in terms of real estate right? 
 

But, yes enjoy all of these things if you want to, just accept you will be taxed more, so those less fortunate can at least feed themselves! 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, jennjenn00 said:

@Leo Gura why so many poor and middle class people feel so hesitant about taxing the rich? 

Rich hold most of the power because they are smarter.

Poor and middleclass folks tend to be ignorant, ideological, conservative, out of touch with politics, and not ambitious enough to do anything about it.

[Jacobsrw]

13 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

I saw this story on Twitter about Jeff Bezos increase in wealth yesterday:

https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/jeff-bezos-13-billion-net-worth-increase-amazon-elon-musk-steve-ballmer.html

Of course, as Twitter is basically an extreme lefty / communist bubble, most of the replies were coming from a Communist perspective, which of course make some great points regarding no 1 human being should be able to hoard this much health, but are mostly coming from a bleeding heart stage green perspective, which as we know often lacks the nuance and ability to come up with systemic solutions except the likes of 'he could solve world hunger with his money!' as if solving systematic issues on a global scale was that easy. Basically all the rebuttals were from a tier 1 perspective, either stage Green, or a Blue/ Orange 'there's nothing wrong with this' response, many had elements of truth & falsehood, but I wanted to come here to try and get some tier 2 responses to this situation. 

Personally, I am the furthest thing from a communist, and believe we should more seek the goal of Equality of Opportunity, not Equality of Outcome, and see extreme communism as 2 sides of the same coin along with extreme fascism, and imagine it would actually work in the elites favor in terms of control. 

In terms of Billionaires, the only real solution I could see is some sort of cap & raising of their consciousness so they wouldn't want to heard mass amounts of wealth, and instead would want to use it to help push humanity forward in numerous ways, for example investing in grass roots projects, increasing wages of their staff, better working conditions etc etc. I don't believe a cap on companies would work as well, but certainly a prevention of having too much control like Amazon does now, and the ability to evade taxes and what not. 

I also definitely do not share the opinion of Commies that all profit is 'theft' lmao, and that business owners don't deserve more money, to me that just shows a lack of understanding of basic economics, and the actual work that goes into owning and running any kind of business. I'm not saying the level of difference we see right now is fair at all, hence why I'm making this thread, but I feel there are better solutions to be found in Yellow/ Turquoise thinkers, than just the typical Green equality of outcome response, but of course they raise great points on the problems, they just seem unable to articulate nuanced solutions most of the time in my experience and become very ideological when you disagree with them, and also have a 'herd' mentality, making having any sort of reasoned discussion very difficult. 

So, what are your guys thoughts on this issue and Billionaires in general and how we could make the inequality smaller ideally from a tier 2 perspective. 

 

This is a serious problem I have often contemplated. Some form of capping is definitely required, however, then libertarian like-minded individuals would complain of individual freedoms being impinged upon.

People seem to not foresee the issue in this matter. What’s stopping billionaires from hoarding mass amounts of nuclear weaponry or pervasive unprivatised technology? What’s stopping giants such as Apple, Microsoft or Amazon from meticulously deconstructing the government and having it submit. At this rate, very little. We cannot simply rely on the integrity of the wealthy since it is their wealth which is known to corrupt them. Consciousness is not raised by utility but receptivity.

Excessive amounts of salary should be distributed towards the development of worldly causes. A repository of funding for much needed developmental advancements. A wealthy individual could select which cause this money is distributed towards but be barred from accessing it at their own right. This way, money is systematically governed but also organised in a democratic manner.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Jacobsrw

[AtheisticNonduality]

36 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Rich hold most of the power because they are smarter.

 

You would think.

[Thought Art]

How much of the “work” we do in society is even valuable? How much of it is simply to earn money. Do we need to work as much as we do? In the way we are? System seems odd to me, I can’t figure it out yet.

[Jacobsrw]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Rich hold most of the power because they are smarter.

This is a naive way to conceive of wealth and poverty. Many of the rich are simply impudently fortunate and hold no more sense than a rock. In fact, a large majority of them earn their wealth from manipulating systems, inheritances and situational networks of which many of the poor do not the luxury to interact with. You may consider manipulating systems to be intellectually intelligent, however, it is far more intelligent to uplift those whom are beneath you since they become the very economic burden you are taxed.

The poor are inferior not simply because of intelligence but often marginalised circumstances and disparity. It’s very complicated not just a binary cause.

Edited July 23, 2020 by Jacobsrw