Did I get this right about psychedelic hallucinations?

[Fran11]

I've been contamplating what Leo means by saying that there's no difference beetween the hallucinations you see on psychedelics and sober perception, and how to reconcile that notion with the fact that long term effects of psychedelic hallucinations are very limited (if you get a million dollars on a psychedelic trip it vanishes, and things like that).

I want to check with you and give an example that might help you understand if you are contamplating this as well.

You can think about it as if there are two levels of reality. The first level is that in which god creates all the appearences that we see on our bubble of "individual" conciousness. And the second level is the "story" (material physical objective reality) that God wants us (itself) to buy into. 

So on the first level, there is no mechanical difference beetween the way God creates psychedelic and sober hallucinations, that's what Leo means. But on the second level, becouse God is creating the story of a physical reality, it has to work AS IF we really were taking a chemical and those hallucinations were the product of it affecting our brains.

That's why if you manifest a million dollars on a psychedelic trip it will be gone when the trip is over, even though there's no difference beetween the appearence of the money on phychedelics and the appearence you would have if you got it sober.

A good example is a video game, if the main character consumes a phychedelic and the video game shows you the hallucinations he has while on the substance, they will be gone after the trip is over, even though the game engine is creating those images exactly the same way it creates the game's "real world".

Much love from Argentina ♡

Edited July 21, 2020 by Fran11
Better comprehension

[Rilles]

Lifes a trip youve gotten used to.

[Fran11]

9 minutes ago, Rilles said:

Lifes a trip youve gotten used to.

Posting irrelevant comments to make yourself look deep is a habit you've gotten used to.

[Rilles]

25 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

Posting irrelevant comments to make yourself look deep is a habit you've gotten used to.

Im an irrelevant elephant. Plus, Im bumping your thread, so its more visible. 

Edited July 21, 2020 by Rilles

[Fran11]

Please I would really like to hear some opinions on this one

[Leo Gura]

@Fran11 Life is a dream. It's just that simple. All sorts of different dreams are possible.

I've yet to hear of anyone manifest a million dollars, or even one dollar, inside a psychedelic trip. So it's a rather moot point.

[Fran11]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Fran11 Life is a dream. It's just that simple. All sorts of different dreams are possible.

I've yet to hear of anyone manifest a million dollars, or even one dollar, inside a psychedelic trip. So it's a rather moot point.

Yeah I haven't either, probably a bad example, taken . The point was understanding the difference beetween psychedelic and sober hallucinations regarding long term effects if they are both equeally real/unreal. A better example might be why when your body morphs on psychedelics after the trips comes back to normal vs if some serious accident happens to you in sober pereception it won't.

[Leo Gura]

@Fran11 That is easily explained by the fact that your consciousness has a certain baseline homeostatic flow. This flow is what we ordinarily call "reality". Psychedelics disrupt this flow, thereby changing reality. But then the flow goes back to what it was. Like throwing a rock into a river.

If your consciousness wasn't like this, you'd literally be considered insane because you wouldn't have a stable sense of "reality".

There are people who can manifest millions of dollars in their own realities. But you call such people insane.

If you could manifest a million dollars in your reality, everyone around you would call you insane and they'd probably lock you up or kill you for witchcraft.

[Fran11]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Fran11 That is easily explained by the fact that your consciousness has a certain baseline homeostatic flow. This flow is what we ordinarily call "reality". Psychedelics disrupt this flow, thereby changing reality. But then the flow goes back to what it was. Like throwing a rock into a river.

If your consciousness wasn't like this, you'd literally be considered insane because you wouldn't have a stable sense of "reality".

There are people who can manifest millions of dollars in their own realities. But you call such people insane.

Yes, I got that point from your video. But would you agree that even though psychedelics change reality God makes it seem like what you are experiencing is just stuff in your brain like materialist think, for the sake of manteining the illusion of material reality? That's why the flow goes back to normal and psychedelic induced alterations vanish.

[Leo Gura]

@Fran11 "Reality" hinges on it being consistent. God is imagining "reality" in a consistent manner for the benefit of your survival.

[Fran11]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Fran11 "Reality" hinges on it being consistent. God is imagining "reality" in a consistent manner for the benefit of your survival.

So in order to make possible the experience of incresed fluidity that psychedelics give you without completely destroy you, God imagines that those changes are "less real" than "reality" because they are due to a chemical acting on brain (even though God creates them exactly the same way mechanically spealing). It has to find a way to somehow fit it with the rest of the dream so that it wont blow you out of existance.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Fran11

[Lyubov]

You have your own personal reference point which is what we all have built our lives around. Examples of this are memories and beliefs. Your personal reference point is then contained within the mind/intelligence which is able to create new beliefs as well as discern imagination (thought), symbols (language), memory, content of the reference point etc. Physical reality is contained within this mind and has its own set of beliefs about it which are part of the reference point. Eventually all these concepts are boundless without a beginning or end so we need a reference point to function from. Some are foundational for the reference point such as what we would call some of the elements of reality that appear objective for humans so when it is disrupted the hallucinations are integrated as "just hallucinations" from the human perspective. From the boundless perspective it's ultimately all relative but when functioning from our human reference points certain experiences are more true than other such as our normal daily lives vs a ayahuasca trip with crazy visions that go away after four hours.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Lyubov

[DecemberFlower]

Can we say then according to these analogies between hallucinations on psychedelics and "hallucination" of ordinary perception that people who have schizophrenia and have visual and auditory hallucinations actually just have more fluid way of consciouness unlike regular people? Fluid in a sense that less of God infinite nature is filtered for survival reasons

Edited August 15, 2020 by DecemberFlower

[Fran11]

45 minutes ago, DecemberFlower said:

Can we say then according to these analogies between hallucinations on psychedelics and "hallucination" of ordinary perception that people who have schizophrenia and have visual and auditory hallucinations actually just have more fluid way of consciouness unlike regular people? Fluid in a sense that less of God infinite nature is filtered for survival reasons

I haven't to study the topic of mental illness deep enough to make conclussions on that one.

I suspectc there is a very broad spectrum.

Maybe for some it's more fluid and for others just different, in the sense that they have hallucinations but their reality its consistent in it own way.

 

Edited August 15, 2020 by Fran11

[Fran11]

7 hours ago, Lyubov said:

Physical reality is contained within this mind and has its own set of beliefs about it which are part of the reference point. Eventually all these concepts are boundless without a beginning or end so we need a reference point to function from. 

Not sure if I got you, if you mean that God generally imagines our "bubbles of indivual perception" in a way that they sort of fit with each other and with the ilussion of physcial reality then yes.

[Virtually]

@Fran11 it's like the distinction between difference/being and meaning; meaning is second order but as if added on top, or a result of the "organization" of differences, so to speak.

Interestingmetaphor, thanks

Edited August 16, 2020 by Virtually

[docs20]

On 15/8/2020 at 6:45 AM, Leo Gura said:

@Fran11

If you could manifest a million dollars in your reality, everyone around you would call you insane and they'd probably lock you up or kill you for witchcraft.

But it's not like you'd go to people and tell them "oh guys I manifested 1 million dollars and now I'm rich", you'd tell people you know "oh I won some lottery" or some shit like this.

But I don't know if you mean like the random crazy person on the streets that believes he has millions of dollars, then we'd call him crazy since his reality is not our shared reality. But so that would kind of mean that there are actually infinite dreams of infinite people, and the subtotal of them is the shared reality

Edited August 16, 2020 by docs20

[billiesimon]

On 15/8/2020 at 6:55 AM, Fran11 said:

Yes, I got that point from your video. But would you agree that even though psychedelics change reality God makes it seem like what you are experiencing is just stuff in your brain like materialist think, for the sake of manteining the illusion of material reality? That's why the flow goes back to normal and psychedelic induced alterations vanish.

Well, reality is actually continually shaped by your level of awareness and your vibration. Which means that if you consistently observe negative situations, you tend to manifest them again. That's also why your shadows tend to attract similar bad situations.

Psychedelics boost your awareness and vibration to the roof, so you can experience for a few hours a more flexible and ethereal reality. But generally speaking, normal awareness creates a slowly changing and very solid reality. But you are actually influencing it all the time.

[Fran11]

3 hours ago, billiesimon said:

Well, reality is actually continually shaped by your level of awareness and your vibration. Which means that if you consistently observe negative situations, you tend to manifest them again. That's also why your shadows tend to attract similar bad situations.

Psychedelics boost your awareness and vibration to the roof, so you can experience for a few hours a more flexible and ethereal reality. But generally speaking, normal awareness creates a slowly changing and very solid reality. But you are actually influencing it all the time.

Agree, even sober reality isn't nearly as rigid as materialist think. As your baseline of conciousness increases you come to notice it also without psychesdelics.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Fran11

[Leo Gura]

On 8/15/2020 at 5:39 AM, DecemberFlower said:

Can we say then according to these analogies between hallucinations on psychedelics and "hallucination" of ordinary perception that people who have schizophrenia and have visual and auditory hallucinations actually just have more fluid way of consciouness unlike regular people?

That's exactly correct.

In a sense, schizophrenic people are MORE conscious. But their consciousness is not as stable or consistent, hence they seem weird or struggle to function.