On abortion

[tenta]

To liberals killing a baby while it hasn't been born yet and it's awaiting to be born is not immoral, however killing it shortly after it's born would be immoral and would be murder according to them.

So much moral outrage over a distinction which is really just arbitrary. And ofc this is because they are conforming to the status quo. Abortion is obviously necessary in a number of cases, but is something that it doesn't have to get to, banning abortion would clearly reduce the number of abortions, as opposed to making it happen illegally, because then less women would be in the position where they need to do it as they would know it's illegal (or has some kind of punishment attached to it - a punishment to HELP prevent having to do an abortion).

[Parththakkar12]

From a natural perspective, everything is fair. You can do whatever you want.

From a non-dual perspective, everything is Consciousness. So the question of 'When does the embryo become conscious/living' becomes irrelevant.

[commie]

Liberals are constantly finding new ways to disappoint us, don't they?

Making free contraception and other reproductive services widely available would also reduce the number of abortions. Is that another idea you like? How about sterilizing Christians? That would work as well.

[Leo Gura]

25 minutes ago, tenta said:

banning abortion would clearly reduce the number of abortions, as opposed to making it happen illegally, because then less women would be in the position where they need to do it as they would know it's illegal (or has some kind of punishment attached to it - a punishment to HELP prevent having to do an abortion).

Lol

By this logic no law would ever get broken.

The fact is that banning abortion has been tried and women still do it when it is illegal. Because most people think it should be legal.

Overwhelming majority of people think it should be legal, so in a democracy abortion will be legal. You hold a minority opinion on this, and as people evolve out of Blue to Orange, Green, and Yellow they become more tolerant of abortion, not less, so you're on the losing side of history.

[tenta]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Lol

By this logic no law would ever get broken.

The fact is that banning abortion has been tried and women still do it when it is illegal.

Overwhelming majority of people disagree with you, so in a democracy abortion will be legal.

 

Let's not ban theft because people will do it anyway? No, it does reduce the number of theft committed.

There's no candidate that will ban abortion if they get elected therefore if over 50% wanted it banned it wouldn't get banned.

Edited July 20, 2020 by tenta

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, tenta said:

 

Let's not ban theft because people will do it anyway?

The difference is that 99.9% of people think theft should be illegal, while less than 30% think abortion should be.

Society can survive just fine with abortion being legal. Society cannot survive with theft being legal.

[Artsu]

Look, a conceived foetus has a soul, just as a born person has a soul. Abortion is, generally, murder, and thus a sin.

Having said that though, there are many legal ways to sin, so it being murder is not grounds for it to be illegal, it is just grounds for it to be opposed.

Whether it should be legal depends on legal, social, cultural etc. factors, as well as moral.

[remember]

@tenta would you want to go back to a time when women risked their life to get an abortion? like the thousands of years before - lets be honest a ban on abortion is a form of enslavement of the right of a woman to decide for herself if she wants or wants not to risk her life and additionally spend her life energy on child care. if there was a massive shift in men behavior you could maybe think about alternatives - but even giving a child into an adoptive care not knowing who will care for her child and how, is not really a safe option for every mother after ruining maybe her health or even dying - a lot of men don’t even think about paying for the childcare. there are so many stories of abuse i could tell you because men think they have a right to decide what’s the best for themselfs. maybe before going back to the middleages we would need to evolve in these aspects. get yourself a family and care for them even if they leave you and stop trying to control other people’s lifes, at least let them own that.

Edited July 20, 2020 by remember

[Rilles]

@tenta Thats Male perspective.

Now imagine being dirt poor then getting raped by your family friend and not being able to abort. 

Edited July 20, 2020 by Rilles

[remember]

conscious abortion would look like that: a woman gets psychological help to make a decision for her interest, she gets also informed about her financial situation from then on which includes a plan on how she does not loose her financial independency or gets scapegoated as being lazy because of being a mother. its endless.

if you would ban abortion consciously you would need to give women a lot more credit for doing all the dirty work men usually don’t want to do.

Edited July 20, 2020 by remember

[Light Lover]

Banning Abortion does not reduce the number of Abortions, don't know how many times I have heard this! Women will do it ANYWAY, illegal or legal. Illegal just leads to dangerous back-street abortions which put the mother and fetus at major risk, if they want to do it then they will do it, it's really as simple as that. Abortion needs to be safe and legal for society to function properly, as long as it is not encouraged and women understand what they are doing when doing it. Most up to date countries have learnt this and that suffering on a whole is reducing massively in society when it is kept legal (again, not encouraged and with restrictions of course, no late third trimester abortions for no good reason for example).

[Leo Gura]

Abortion poll in the USA:

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/07/730183531/poll-majority-want-to-keep-abortion-legal-but-they-also-want-restrictions

Only 13% want Roe v Wade overturned.

[tenta]

5 hours ago, remember said:

@tenta would you want to go back to a time when women risked their life to get an abortion? like the thousands of years before - lets be honest a ban on abortion is a form of enslavement of the right of a woman to decide for herself if she wants or wants not to risk her life and additionally spend her life energy on child care. if there was a massive shift in men behavior you could maybe think about alternatives - but even giving a child into an adoptive care not knowing who will care for her child and how, is not really a safe option for every mother after ruining maybe her health or even dying - a lot of men don’t even think about paying for the childcare. there are so many stories of abuse i could tell you because men think they have a right to decide what’s the best for themselfs. maybe before going back to the middleages we would need to evolve in these aspects. get yourself a family and care for them even if they leave you and stop trying to control other people’s lifes, at least let them own that.

So you didn't read the entire post? I am not for simply banning abortion, but for having some kind of punishment or disincentive against it, this includes more access to birth control/better education. And again if it was banned then women would get into situations in which they have to have an abortion at a lesser rate.

[tenta]

5 hours ago, commie said:

How about sterilizing Christians?

Who is saying or implying this? Mind you I am open to the possibility that they are.

[commie]

I just said that it would result in fewer abortions. Indeed the reduction would be much higher than banning abortion or "having some kind of punishment". So you are in favor of my modest proposal? Marvelous!

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, tenta said:

I am not for simply banning abortion, but for having some kind of punishment or disincentive against it

Do you realize what it’s like for a woman to get an abortion? You talk about abortion as if it’s like going to the dentist for a tooth cleaning. For most women, this is a mentally, emotionally and physically stressful process. Quite often women need therapy to work through it. As well, many women do not have easy access to clinics that perform abortions or have the financial means to pay for it. 

7 hours ago, tenta said:

To liberals killing a baby while it hasn't been born yet and it's awaiting to be born is not immoral, however killing it shortly after it's born would be immoral and would be murder according to them.

This is a straw man. Liberals to not want to pull out babies three days before the due date and kill it. The vast majority of liberals want restrictions on abortions, for example it can only be done in the first two trimesters, unless the woman’s life is in danger. As well, the early developmental stage is an embryo and a later developmental stage is a fetus. An embryo is not a “baby” or “unborn child”. A baby or child is the developmental stage after birth. . . . It would be like calling an infant an “un-aged senior citizen”. 

[tenta]

2 hours ago, Forestluv said:

Do you realize what it’s like for a woman to get an abortion? You talk about abortion as if it’s like going to the dentist for a tooth cleaning. For most women, this is a mentally, emotionally and physically stressful process. Quite often women need therapy to work through it. As well, many women do not have easy access to clinics that perform abortions or have the financial means to pay for it. 

This is a straw man. Liberals to not want to pull out babies three days before the due date and kill it. The vast majority of liberals want restrictions on abortions, for example it can only be done in the first two trimesters, unless the woman’s life is in danger. As well, the early developmental stage is an embryo and a later developmental stage is a fetus. An embryo is not a “baby” or “unborn child”. A baby or child is the developmental stage after birth. . . . It would be like calling an infant an “un-aged senior citizen”. 

what a low IQ disgusting bootlicker fa***** nig*** you'd have to be to say this, lol

I'm pointing out the complete hypocrisy of thinking someone's life only matters after they come out of the womb and you can't address it

and I also said abortion is not pleasant for a woman so it should be avoided

 

But keep being vegan to make a 0.00001% difference thinking you're doing the right thing or whatever

[AtheisticNonduality]

1 minute ago, tenta said:

what a low IQ disgusting bootlicker fa***** nig*** you'd have to be to say this, lol

I'm pointing out the complete hypocrisy of thinking someone's life only matters after they come out of the womb and you can't address it

and I also said abortion is not pleasant for a woman so it should be avoided

 

But keep being vegan to make a 0.00001% difference thinking you're doing the right thing or whatever

Farewell.

 

[Forestluv]

11 minutes ago, tenta said:

what a low IQ disgusting bootlicker fa***** nig*** you'd have to be to say this, lol

Settle down.

11 minutes ago, tenta said:

I'm pointing out the complete hypocrisy of thinking someone's life only matters after they come out of the womb and you can't address it

You never asked me. I would have addressed your question if you asked me to.

11 minutes ago, tenta said:

But keep being vegan to make a 0.00001% difference thinking you're doing the right thing or whatever

I’m not vegan. You are projecting all sorts of stuff. 

[commie]

9 minutes ago, tenta said:

I'm pointing out the complete hypocrisy of thinking someone's life only matters after they come out of the womb and you can't address it

I don't care much for civility and I'm no liberal but there's an obvious reason why it makes a big difference that a baby is still in its womb... I would address it if was asked in by someone who appeared to be interesting in finding out what that reason is.