What is Deep Sleep?

[Samuel Garcia]

After watching Leo's video about Something and Nothing, I just want to clarify what is deep sleep and death. So I would have thought that deep sleep and death would be nothing and the world is something. But is Leo suggesting there is no difference between these two states? Isn't there a clear difference between deep sleep and the world?  

To me, deep sleep is nothing/infinity and the world is a finite and limitation. So there is a distinction between these two states. But then isn't being in the nothingness of deep sleep another limitation?

I'm finding it hard to grasp what deep sleep is and the world is.

[Someone here]

Perhaps you should try to grasp how silly it is to try to grasp the ungraspable. Trying to use thoughts and concepts to comprehend what by it's very nature is incomprehensible is like trying to use your ears to drink water to satisfy your hunger.. The wrong tool for the wrong goal. 

[Samuel Garcia]

@Someone here @Someone here This is not about concepts. Deep sleep is an experience we all have. The waking state is the experience we are having now. I am saying there is a clear distinction of the nothingness of deep sleep and the something of the experience of waking life, as we look at this screen. Nothing and something is not the same in this instance.

I'm thinking it is better think of ''finite'' and infinite'' rather than something and nothing. Nothing it better attributed to infinity because it nothing is undefined. If infinite has any ''something'' to it as some religions define God, it would not be God, the absolute. To know the world, we have to overlook the infinity/nothing that is here. But that infinity is absolute, and always remains. Self inquiry is a practice which points to the absolute.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Samuel Garcia

[Someone here]

What is a thing?   Define "thingness".  Before attributing "some"=something. "No"=nothing.."every" =everything. ..

But what is a thing? A thing as a thing not your concepts about it.. The "thing in itself" as they call it.. What Is that? .  You have to notice that you know nothing about it.. You have to admit first that you actually do NOT know what the hell a thing is.. And then we can move to next step. Because if you think you already know what that is.. Fine go for it.. You don't need to ask about it. You are right and I'm wrong. 

[Someone here]

@Samuel Garcia moving on to the next step.. The definition of a "thing" is infinity.   

Thing =infinity.  Infinite means non-finite=non definitive=unknown =no thing.

Meaning that It's undefined. You can't define a thing at a fundamental level.  I don't mean giving superficial labels.. I mean going to the existential core of what things are.. What is this present moment that you call reality?  Obviously it is a "thing" right?  But what Is a thing? You can't actually "say" what that is because all words are defined in terms of each other and they give you circular definitions that don't explain anything.   Why is there something?  Because there is awareness of something.. And why there is awareness of something?  Because there is something!!  You see the circulation.  You already assume that there is something before actually investigating the question.  And when you investigate it enough you will see the circulation . The paradox.. The self-reference proplem.  You can't prove all the premises of a logical structure from within that logical structure.. You have to go meta at some point.  For example how do you know that you are aware?   You actually cannot prove to yourself that you are aware because that will lead to self - reference proplem and infinite regression.. "I'm aware that I'm aware and I'm aware that I'm aware that I'm aware and I'm aware that I'm aware that I'm aware that I'm aware... To infinity".   It's not something that can be proved rationally that you are aware.. It's a first hand experience and not a matter of proof. 

Why is reality nothing?  First of all it's not nothing as in zero or blankness and Leo said that clearly in the video.   Nothingness is the quality of emptiness.. All these forms that you see around you are inherently empty.. Always changing and morphing and shifting.. There is no fixed reality.. It's just a Flux.  Reality is a shape shifter not a static thing.. And that's why it is not a "thing" but rather a No-thing constantly shifting from one "thing" to another "thing".   

 Look at this GIF.. Notice that that's not a "thing".. You can't give it any identity.. You can't say what that thing is.. And that's like all of reality.. It's nothing because you can't say what that thing is or give it any fixed identity because it has none. 

Edited July 21, 2020 by Someone here

[Nahm]

13 hours ago, Samuel Garcia said:

Deep sleep is an experience we all have

If you scrutinize direct experience acutely you’ll realize what deep sleep is, and therefore the true nature of ‘you’ & reality. 

What is your direct experience of deep sleep? 

[James123]

@Samuel Garcia if you don’t associate with the thoughts, sleeping has no differences than being awake. 

[Samuel Garcia]

@Nahm All I know is what I experience. I just get a blank in deep sleep. So it is hard to scrutinise that experience. How to investigate blank?

It as if I am not there in deep sleep. But we could say I am there, because I know that blank.

[Nahm]

2 hours ago, Samuel Garcia said:

It as if I am not there in deep sleep. But we could say I am there, because I know that blank.

I’d scrutinize that more. How do you know the blank?

[billiesimon]

4 minutes ago, Nahm said:

I’d scrutinize that more. How do you know the blank?

I'm pretty sure that deep sleep is a mental concept.

We experience the day, we experience falling asleep, we experience dreams, we experience waking up. There may be no actual deep sleep.

[Petals]

@Samuel Garcia I think Leo didn't talk about states. but I think you are right in saying that the waking state and the deep sleep state are both states and they are therefore both temporal and limited and are both seemingly limitations.

but that which underlies all states is what is important. that is you. and you are indeed there in deep sleep. but not the you that arises in the morning and subsides in the evening - that you is temporal, too - but the you that is the Self.

that's at least what Ramana Maharshi would say.

http://ramana-talk-mailer.appspot.com/read?post_name=Talk&index=609

"For the Self is Pure Consciousness. No one can ever be away from the Self."

Edited July 22, 2020 by Petals

[Samuel Garcia]

@Petals Thanks so much for the share. Sleep is not necessarily pure consciousness according to Ramana.

@Nahm I am confident I slept. So it is a knowing. I am not sure if its 1) pure knowing or if its 2) a knowing of absence (of all phenoma). These two are the same, no? 

[Nahm]

@Samuel Garcia

What about the phenomena of a you sleeping? 

[Samuel Garcia]

@Nahm A ''me sleeping'' is almost like a non-phenomena, but it is not nothing. That's as clear as I can get with this for now. Thank you so much for the guidance  

[The0Self]

A state of pure forgetfulness.

[Nahm]

@Samuel Garcia

It’s a phenomena, if we are to agree that the thought “I sleep” is an, albeit apparent, phenomena. There is no actuality whatsoever which that thought points to. “Sleep” is similar to “death” in that perception seems to lead us to an assumption. Another way to say what can’t be said lol...”since I exist, I must have been sleeping when I was not awake”. This assumes there is an I which is awake at times, but there is neither an I, awake, nor time...just as there is no actuality of sleep or death.

[WaveInTheOcean]

Deep sleep is an illusion. It doesn't exist. If it did exist, it would be possible to experience.

This present moment is all there is. And what you call "future" and "my sleep tonight" are ideas that are useful within your dream of your current life in order to survive as the character you believe you are. But "future" and "my sleep tonight" are just that: concepts. Tools. They don't exist. The future will happen in this present moment. This present moment right now is all there is. You see? Everything else is concepts. Your sleep tonight will never happen. Of course, relatively speaking, it will probably happen. But it will happen as an idea, not as a true experience, cos true experience = awareness = now = Love = Consciousness = God = You.

[Samuel Garcia]

@WaveInTheOcean  ''I sleep'' or ''blank'' are both undoubtedly concepts. @Nahm To clarify, are you saying there is no sleep or death at all and these are just concepts? My question then would be then: how do I know of deep sleep? The confusing thing is, I can only know it as a concept in this moment -- but I am conscious of the concept of sleep is just a mere representation of sleep.... But without the thought how can I know sleep? There is no sleep without the thought, only this moment.

At this point I get confused with ''this moment''. If I take the experience of running, for example, it is a thought now. But I know it is more than a thought and an experience which could be had. Likewise sleep is more than a concept. 

What we experience now is limited to what is now, but this experience of now can change. 

Edited July 23, 2020 by Samuel Garcia

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, Samuel Garcia said:

@WaveInTheOcean  ''I sleep'' or ''blank'' are both undoubtedly concepts. @Nahm To clarify, are you saying there is no sleep or death at all and these are just concepts?

Yes. 

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My question then would be then: how do I know of deep sleep?

You don’t. 

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The confusing thing is, I can only know it as a concept in this moment -- but I am conscious of the concept of sleep is just a mere representation of sleep.... But without the thought how can I know sleep? 

You can’t cause it isn’t actual. Why would you want to anyways? 

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At this point I get confused with ''this moment''. If I take the experience of running, for example, it is a thought now. But I know it is more than a thought and an experience which could be had. Likewise sleep is more than a concept. 

Running...vibrational appearance, same for the thought “running”. Sleep - no vibrational appearance, but the thought “sleep” is a vibrational appearance. 

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What we experience now is limited to what is now, but this experience of now can change. 

Yes indeed, and there is no example in experience of anything whatsoever which is not a state of change, because “it” appears to be, “it” is a vibration. 

It is possible btw “ime” to “be conscious in sleep”, which is to say without the apparent veil of the finite mind. It’s possible there is a linguistic miscommunication happening at my end here, but in having experienced this non-experience of “sleep”, it was crystal clear...so I’m working from the assumption that is not what you’re referring to. 

[Samuel Garcia]

 

12 hours ago, Nahm said:

You don’t. 

Well I do know of deep sleep. As in I think I slept whether it is real or not.

12 hours ago, Nahm said:

It is possible btw “ime” to “be conscious in sleep”, which is to say without the apparent veil of the finite mind. It’s possible there is a linguistic miscommunication happening at my end here, but in having experienced this non-experience of “sleep”, it was crystal clear...so I’m working from the assumption that is not what you’re referring to. 

Isn't everyone already conscious of deep sleep? Though most people may not say so, as thought says otherwise.