From Leo’s blog about homeless perspective, I researched prostitutes perspective

[Gesundheit]

2 minutes ago, commie said:

It was elaborate but when you say "it's energy after all", it sounds like you expect that to make sense while that's what I think requires explanation (all I know is the Joules type of energy).

I mean it should make sense to you unless you don't experience sexual urges. It's not physics but simply in the human nature.

4 minutes ago, commie said:

I was hoping for something less abstract than "pathologically" and more lurid since you talked about murder.

My perspective is simply not to assume causes without evidence. It seems prostitution has become less common (or is it only less spoken of?) while murders have become less common as well but that doesn't mean there's any causal relationship there.

Well, society has evolved enormously over the past decades. Sex is getting easier and more at reach for a lot more people than before. Plus, porn and sex toys play a certain role in removing the urges even if only partially or temporarily. Observation is the utmost evidence. You have to take into account everything that has changed about our relationship towards sex and how suppressed it was before. It's similar to poverty and theft. The less poor people are the less likely they will steal.

12 minutes ago, commie said:

More to the point perhaps, I'm perplexed by the notion that sex is an "essential need", except of course for the purpose of reproduction (which isn't what prostitutes provide).

Maybe for you it's not an essential need, but for most people it is.

[commie]

How would I know if I experience what you call sexual "urges"? I'm asking because I'm struggling to see the connection with murder and stuff. Like, would you assault people if you were drunk and horny or something?

3 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Maybe for you it's not an essential need, but for most people it is.

When businesses were required to close because of the epidemic, prostitutes weren't exempt. IIRC, they weren't even on the intermediate list but considered no more essential than nail salons and such. So it's certainly not just me!

[Gesundheit]

@Rilles Sexual orientation is a different thing. Maybe she likes it rough too. I think that you're approaching this issue merely from an ordinary male's perspective, not an ordinary female's perspective or a male who like being submissive in sex.

[Rilles]

2 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

@Rilles Sexual orientation is a different thing. Maybe she likes it rough too. I think that you're approaching this issue merely from an ordinary male's perspective, not an ordinary female's perspective or a male who like being submissive in sex.

When did I mention orientation?

Were not talking about BDSM, dont scurry around the topic, You said it prevents rape, rape is a form of violence, you can be violent towards a prostitute. What regulations would you put up to prevent that? Its very convienient to say it prevents it when you dont have any evidence it does.

If I saw this from a purely male perspective I would say "Oh, great, free sex, awesome" But Im seeing it from a females perspective, how do you keep them safe doing a difficult job. 

[Gesundheit]

2 minutes ago, commie said:

How would I know if I experience what you call sexual "urges"? I'm asking because I'm struggling to see the connection with murder and stuff. Like, would you assault people if you were drunk and horny or something?

We are not talking about ordinary, well-raised, well-educated people. I think the reason for this struggle is that you can hardly relate to what that's like. I am not the best at demonstrating these connections but I can see them clearly. Maybe someone else who is more articulate than me can join in and illustrate.

6 minutes ago, commie said:

When businesses were required to close because of the epidemic, prostitutes weren't exempt. IIRC, they weren't even on the intermediate list but considered no more essential than nail salons and such. So it's certainly not just me!

Sex is essential, not prostitution. Prostitution is a manifestation of a society that is not fulfilling the sexual need of its individuals efficiently.

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

Prostitutes provide an essential need for others, which would otherwise manifest in multiple problematic ways such as rape and theft and murder. In fact, they're doing a hard job since they take whatever comes to them. They don't differentiate between beautiful or ugly, rich or poor, famous or a bum, etc... They accept everyone. That's so Godlike.

To me, this is a naive and patriarchal view. It is a man saying “I have needs. If you don’t sacrifice yourself to fulfill my needs I may commit rape, theft and murder. Yes, you have a difficult job sacrificing yourself to satisfy my needs. And you take all the punches you receive without judging me or retaliating. You accept all the abuse you receive to serve my needs. You are a good girl who knows her place. And for that you godlike”.

It doesn’t sound like you are aware of the twisted world of prostitution and the minds of many men who use them. This isn’t just about a sexually frustrated male that would like to relieve his urges in a respectful sexual encounter. There are power and abuse dynamics as well. There are demented mental games. There are societal conditionings about what it means to be a man that the man carries. There are married men that can have plenty of sex from their wife that seek prostitutes which becomes toxic to his wife and children. Many men that frequent prostitutes aren’t just relieving a little horniness with a fun sex escapade. Rather, they need psychological therapy. As well, the realm of prostitution can condition men to have distorted views of women and hinder them from developing healthy relationships with women. As well, there can tremendous physical and mental harm inflicted upon the women. Often, the industry allows men to prey upon the most vulnerable women in society. As well, participating in realms of prostitution can have toxic effects on men and increase their tendency to rape, theft and murder. The realm of prostitution involves rape, theft and murder. It involves rough neighborhoods. 

I’m not saying prostitution is completely evil and immoral. Yet to leave out the dark aspects is either naive or selectively biased. 

What you suggest as simple sexual urges that can be relieved through prostitution are often deeper problems that need therapy. As well, why should women bear the brunt of a man that cannot manage his sexual urges? Perhaps he can be trained to relieve himself through enhanced masturbation or virtual sex. Perhaps he may need to go on medication to lower high testosterone levels. To me, assuming extreme sexual urges of a man is the norm and a woman should sacrifice herself to satisfy those urges is a hyper partriarchal view. It is waaay too shifted toward the man’s perspective and callous to the welfare of the women.

I find it interesting when men try to explain the role that women should play as sexual servants to men in society. Men explaining to women what sexual roles they should play to satisfy men’s sexual urges. Imagine what it would be like if women controlled the narrative and told men what their sexual role is to be in society. Perhaps women would get to dictate that men suffer with their sexual urges and they are mocked and humiliated for it. Perhaps this gives some women a sense of empowerment. And then the women tell the maltreated men that they are “good boys” for accepting their subordinate role without judging women that abuse them. And for this, the men are “godlike”. 

[Gesundheit]

3 minutes ago, Rilles said:

You said it prevents rape, rape is a form of violence, you can be violent towards a prostitute.

If you can have sex or a regular basis, rape will be a lot less likely. Again, we are not talking about ordinary, well-raised, well-educated people. It's not the same for everyone. But for the ones who would possibly commit rape it could reduce their urges and in a way cure them.

7 minutes ago, Rilles said:

If I saw this from a purely male perspective I would say "Oh, great, free sex, awesome" But Im seeing it from a females perspective, how do you keep them safe doing a difficult job. 

It's not free sex. Prostitutes get paid for their work. Think about it from a human's perspective who needs money to survive.

[commie]

8 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Sex is essential, not prostitution.

If it was essential, then prostitution would also be essential (as long as it is remains the only way for many to have sex). In what way do you figure sex is essential in the first place?

6 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Prostitution is a manifestation of a society that is not fulfilling the sexual need of its individuals efficiently.

What would efficiency look like in this regard?

[Rilles]

2 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

If you can have sex or a regular basis, rape will be a lot less likely. Again, we are not talking about ordinary, well-raised, well-educated people. It's not the same for everyone. But for the ones who would possibly commit rape it could reduce their urges and in a way cure them.

Youre looking at rape from a purely sexual urge point of view, alot of rape comes from a hatred of women, what makes you say a man doesnt go back week after week just to take out his anger on a prostitute? Youre also assuming rapists are always sex-starved. 

It's not free sex. Prostitutes get paid for their work. Think about it from a human's perspective who needs money to survive.

Yeah, I meant more like "free" in the sense of easy sex, dont have to go through the process of attractrating someone. 

 

[Gesundheit]

1 minute ago, commie said:

If it was essential, then prostitution would also be essential (as long as it is remains the only way for many to have sex).

Did it ever stop existing?

4 minutes ago, commie said:

In what way do you figure sex is essential in the first place?

In the way that it is a main driver for why people wake up in the morning and go to work.

8 minutes ago, commie said:

What would efficiency look like in this regard?

Everyone having sex whenever they need to without much struggle.

[commie]

7 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

In the way that it is a main driver for why people wake up in the morning and go to work.

Are you some kind of Freudian? I don't mean to insult you, only to relate your words to other things I've heard in order to make some sense of them.

8 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Everyone having sex whenever they need to without much struggle.

Are you imagining normalized rape?

[Gesundheit]

@Rilles I didn't say that prostitution or sex would solve rape or crime entirely. Rape and murder have more than one cause. Lack of sex is merely one cause.

And why should anyone go through the process of attracting someone? This is one of society's blindspots. The least attractive don't get to have sex? Why? They're less than others? What an injustice! Everyone should be able to have sex regularly. Or, the most attractive and the ordinary will have to endure the results, which is what happens anyway.

[Gesundheit]

2 minutes ago, commie said:

Are you imagining normalized rape?

No. I am imagining a society free of pride, hierarchy, or ego.

[commie]

2 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

No. I am imagining a society free of pride, hierarchy, or ego.

If you call it ego when someone doesn't want to have sex with whoever wants to have sex with them and stamp that out somehow, it does sound very much like normalized rape.

[Rilles]

6 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

@Rilles I didn't say that prostitution or sex would solve rape or crime entirely. Rape and murder have more than one cause. Lack of sex is merely one cause.

Good, solved that one. 

And why should anyone go through the process of attracting someone? This is one of society's blindspots. The least attractive don't get to have sex? Why? They're less than others? What an injustice! Everyone should be able to have sex regularly. Or, the most attractive and the ordinary will have to endure the results, which is what happens anyway.

Are you an incel? Just because people deserve their share of happiness doesnt mean everyone should get sex, its a consensual act, we cant just force women to sleep with us just because we feel entitled. Whats next? A government ordered girlfriend for every lonely person in the world. Sounds like slavery to me. I realized this conversation has kind of change my view on prostitution... I dont even know if I find it very attractive anymore after listening to guys like you. 

 

Edited July 18, 2020 by Rilles

[Espaim]

15 hours ago, Moon said:

Yeah lol, and messed up stuff can happen

This video convinced me to stop watching that shit

I'm done

[Gesundheit]

55 minutes ago, commie said:

If you call it ego when someone doesn't want to have sex with whoever wants to have sex with them and stamp that out somehow, it does sound very much like normalized rape.

It's not that. Getting sex in the human society requires meeting certain criteria. But not everyone is capable of meeting them. These criteria are ego.

Wanting to have sex with certain people,  i.e. being selective, is also ego since it involves criteria.

The raw sex drive is pure and innocent and should be fulfilled. Otherwise it will manifest in pathological ways. You either realize that or you don’t.

[Gesundheit]

1 hour ago, Rilles said:

Are you an incel? Just because people deserve their share of happiness doesnt mean everyone should get sex, its a consensual act, we cant just force women to sleep with us just because we feel entitled. Whats next? A government ordered girlfriend for every lonely person in the world. Sounds like slavery to me. I realized this conversation has kind of change my view on prostitution... I dont even know if I find it very attractive anymore after listening to guys like you. 

The funny thing is that everyone is currently a slave to the system and don't even realize it. Self-deception at its finest. I am not advocating forcing others to have sex with you but others are forcing you to change so that they allow you to have sex with them. If that's not slavery, I don't know what is. And guess what? Not everyone is as good as changing themselves. Not everyone is good at deceiving others. Have some sympathy for those who are less fortunate.

And well, I believe that everyone should get sex. If you believe otherwise, then there's no point in this discussion since we have totally different principles.

Also, prostitution is not exclusive to women. Obese, and not so good-looking ladies deserve to have sex as well, hence male prostitutes. Gender typing prostitution to females only is sexist.

[Rilles]

13 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

The funny thing is that everyone is currently a slave to the system and don't even realize it. Self-deception at its finest. I am not advocating forcing others to have sex with you but others are forcing you to change so that they allow you to have sex with them.

Lmao. 

If that's not slavery, I don't know what is. And guess what? Not everyone is as good as changing themselves. Not everyone is good at deceiving others. Have some sympathy for those who are less fortunate.

Ive only had one gf in my life. I wouldnt say im very fortunate at all, but its my responsibilty if I want to attract someone, waiting for prostitution to be legal is some weak shit. I dont go around blaming women for it.

And well, I believe that everyone should get sex. If you believe otherwise, then there's no point in this discussion since we have totally different principles.

Also, prostitution is not exclusive to women. Obese, and not so good-looking ladies deserve to have sex as well, hence male prostitutes. Gender typing prostitution to females only is sexist.

I am aware of that.

Im sexist? Irony.

 

[Gesundheit]

@Rilles 

"Ive only had one gf in my life. I wouldnt say im very fortunate at all, but its my responsibilty if I want to attract someone"

It's not your responsibility. It's your right. But the system forces you to believe that it's your fault because otherwise you won't have sex at all. I understand your position but I don't share it. I do personal development because it's practical, but I also understand that this is not how things should be ideally. I don't confuse practicality for the ideals. Hence, I'm not a slave to the system, at least on the mental level.

"waiting for prostitution to be legal is some weak shit. I dont go around blaming women for it."

Don't put words in my mouth. I was explaining why prostitution exists, not advocating it.