If everything is perfect as it is what's the point of doing anything?

[tatsumaru]

1 minute ago, Mu_ said:

Can you love what you are right now.

Sometimes, but mostly when I am not in physical or psychological pain. However that's cheap - anyone can enjoy life when things are going their way.
It seems to me that there are two ways out of this misery - either have enough power to express yourself as you wish at any moment (which seems impossible) or be able to feel at home even in hell (which leads to my initial question and becomes a fractal).

[bejapuskas]

@tatsumaru  Why do you think you cannot express yourself as you wish at any moment?

[SoonHei]

3 minutes ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

One who wants to know what it feels like to be a slave... and then wake up from this self-imposed Amnesia and have a big old laugh about it.

spot on

 

@tatsumaru of course! if starting today, you start telling yourself I AM THE MASTER, I CAN DO WHATEVER I WANT - that's simply only a belief... a thought...

it's not a charged thought which brings about a change or a deep inner feeling or knowing. it's almost equal to me telling you that the population of Congo is 84 million. it's just a thought/belief/fact... but WTF does it do...

 

it does nothing whatsoever!

yet it is the truth. it's like an advertisement. a sale offer! you are being told that you can come to discover your true nature AS a master... 

it is a discovery. it will be a tangible experience once you really feel your true power as the master of your reality... till then, as you said, it's just "make belief"

it's like your mom/dad telling you that you guys won the lottery! those aren't just words. they are charged words! hearing them brings about an exhilaration! that's what the true discovery of YOU ARE A MASTER will be like. 

 

"You believe you don't have the power you really have... You're using your power right NOW... to believe you're powerless... a puppet.

That's how powerful you are!"

[tatsumaru]

5 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

@tatsumaru  Why do you think you cannot express yourself as you wish at any moment?

Can I become a baby cheetah now if I wanted to?
 

3 minutes ago, SoonHei said:

yet it is the truth.

Ok since you have recognized this truth already and you are cognizant of being a master why don't you show me and free my mind like Morpheus did. Show me how my slavery is falsehood. I've heard from tens of so-called enlightened masters that they are the masters of their fate and can do whatever they want and yet they struggle with health or to achieve some humanitarian causes just like anyone else and eventually they die just like anyone else. For me this is just some delusion, some psychological mantra that results in a secretion of dopamine much like Muhammad Ali declared "I am the greatest!".

[Someone here]

Yeah there is no point unless the point that you want to make up.. 

[commie]

12 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

I've heard from tens of so-called enlightened masters that they are the masters of their fate and can do whatever they want

Also, leaders of Death Metal bands.

Or have I got by Black confused with my Death again?

Edited July 17, 2020 by commie

[Mu_]

19 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

Sometimes, but mostly when I am not in physical or psychological pain. However that's cheap - anyone can enjoy life when things are going their way.
It seems to me that there are two ways out of this misery - either have enough power to express yourself as you wish at any moment (which seems impossible) or be able to feel at home even in hell (which leads to my initial question and becomes a fractal).

Out of "this" misery?  What exactly are you convinced of is misery? 

Perhaps its good to start there.

 

[SoonHei]

@tatsumaru the only Morpheus-esq thing anyone can do here is show you the way. the closest thing to a red-pill might be some strong psychedelic like 5meo you can take.

we can only show you the path. guide you... point you in the direction... like a sign on the highway. you are behind the wheel and must walk/drive the path on your own. nobody can taste the fruit on your behalf. you gotta take the bite and taste it yourself. 

 

8 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

I've heard from tens of so-called enlightened masters that they are the masters of their fate and can do whatever they want and yet they struggle with health or to achieve some humanitarian causes just like anyone else and eventually they die just like anyone else.

what you see and experience in your reality will reflect that which you deeply believe... subconscious beliefs. if this is how you know/believe reality operates, this is exactly what you will get it.

you are always the center in command of your experience. god himself cannot change your viewpoint if you don't decide to do so yourself

because really, once again, you are the god of your own reality. nobody can come and de-throne you and show you the way. you are the throne itself.

 

yes, just more words, i know... but just because there's no immediate fruit from them, doesn't mean they aren't powerful... lots of words are like seeds. the fruit will come in due time.

[tatsumaru]

12 minutes ago, Mu_ said:

Out of "this" misery?  What exactly are you convinced of is misery? 

Perhaps its good to start there.

 

The usual stuff people complain about - disease, madness, pain, rejection, cravings - almost everything really.
Ryokan suggested:

Quote

I watch people in the world
Throw away their lives lusting after things,
Never able to satisfy their desires,
Falling into deeper despair
And torturing themselves.
Even if they get what they want
How long will they be able to enjoy it?
For one heavenly pleasure
They suffer ten torments of hell,
Binding themselves more firmly to the grindstone.
Such people are like monkeys
Frantically grasping for the moon in the water
And then falling into a whirlpool.
How endlessly those caught up in the floating world suffer.
Despite myself, I fret over them all night
And cannot staunch my flow of tears.

9 minutes ago, SoonHei said:

what you see and experience in your reality will reflect that which you deeply believe... subconscious beliefs. if this is how you know/believe reality operates, this is exactly what you will get it.

This is a flawed argument. One doesn't simply decide to believe in suffering, one picks it up from their environment prior to having any beliefs about it. Your cat gets hit by a bus when you are a kid you miss it - has nothing to do with beliefs and your beliefs are certainly not going to resurrect the cat either. Suffering is inherent to our dimension, we can only pretend it doesn't matter by telling ourselves it's all cool. If this reality or whatever you want to call it is so great then why aren't any of the Buddhas sticking around after they get enlightened even though they are immortal?

 

Edited July 17, 2020 by tatsumaru

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

"Why do we fall? - So that we can learn to pick ourselves up."

Alfred Pennyworth

[SoonHei]

6 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

One doesn't simply decide to believe in suffering, one picks it up from their environment prior to having any beliefs about it.

indeed! you got that spot on!

we are simply thrown in the middle of a video-game so to speak. without any controls or instruction manual. we learn from those around us, who are also in same situation and have also learned from those around them and the experiences they have had.

you start off as a puppet... a rolling stone down the hill, no control where you go or land or bump into. along the way you pick up whatsoever you experience and so on. you have been doing this for eternity... until self-awareness kicks in and there's the opportunity to make that u-turn on the highway, it's only a matter of when and not if

 

so those beliefs form. they must be unformed, unlearned.

and all the rest, with due time.

bless you champ. keep digging <3

[Mu_]

@tatsumaru And how do these thing's that you label misery pertain to your life?  Are you mad or troubled at their existence?  Do you let the fact of their existence bother you over and over, just because they exist, Or are you actually dealing with some of these right now?

[Call Me Whatever]

to pass the time beautifully. 

[bejapuskas]

32 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

Can I become a baby cheetah now if I wanted to?

@tatsumaru  Do you actually want that? Does your heart burn when you think about it? Actually imagine what that would mean. Perhaps you haven't asked yourself what you truly want/value, so your thoughts are hectic. Then it might seem like there is no goal or that you are doomed or that you are going in circles, but actually, if you do not know what you want, it means you aren't going where you want to go, because that direction isn't a part of your existence.

[James123]

1 hour ago, tatsumaru said:

bother even waking up from your bed in the morning? What's the point of consciousness if nothing needs to be changed at all?

do you think you wake up every morning? No one is here to wake up, and nothing is here to be change. The person who wakes up in the world is an illusion. 
 

 

Edited July 17, 2020 by James123

[tatsumaru]

11 minutes ago, Mu_ said:

@tatsumaru And how do these thing's that you label misery pertain to your life?  Are you mad or troubled at their existence?  Do you let the fact of their existence bother you over and over, just because they exist, Or are you actually dealing with some of these right now?

Yes, I have been struggling with insomnia, chronic fatigue and endless cycles of existential crises for the last 15 years. I have tons of health issues that doctors can't diagnose and that I've tried anything in order to fix with very little success. I can go on and on, but I think that's irrelevant, even if my life was perfect I would still complain that these things exist for other people.

 

7 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

Do you actually want that? Does your heart burn when you think about it? Actually imagine what that would mean. Perhaps you haven't asked yourself what you truly want/value, so your thoughts are hectic. Then it might seem like there is no goal or that you are doomed or that you are going in circles, but actually, if you do not know what you want, it means you aren't going where you want to go, because that direction isn't a part of your existence.

I think it's irrelevant whether I truly want it or not. I can certainly kill myself without wanting it or get cancer without truly wanting it so I might as well be able to do anything else. And to answer your question more directly - I'd love to try being a cheetah or a bird for a day or so, it will probably suck even more though but who knows, maybe it will be kewl, it would definitely help me get to work faster.

 

21 minutes ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

"Why do we fall? - So that we can learn to pick ourselves up."

I don't like this train of thought - it's cyclical not liberating. If there was no suffering you wouldn't need to get stronger.

[JosephKnecht]

Everything is perfect, but also everything is infinite. 

The infinite, although perfect can always be infinitely more perfect. 

[bejapuskas]

8 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

Yes, I have been struggling with insomnia, chronic fatigue and endless cycles of existential crises for the last 15 years. I have tons of health issues that doctors can't diagnose and that I've tried anything in order to fix with very little success. I can go on and on, but I think that's irrelevant, even if my life was perfect I would still complain that these things exist for other people.

I am sorry to hear that. What have you tried to fix those already?

9 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

I think it's irrelevant whether I truly want it or not. I can certainly kill myself without wanting it

Do you feel like you want to kill yourself?

10 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

I'd love to try being a cheetah or a bird for a day or so, it will probably suck even more though but who knows, maybe it will be kewl, it would definitely help me get to work faster.

True x) You can use imagination. It's certainly interesting to think about what kind of flaws do birds/cheetahs have in their lives, thinking about how they go around doing things. Are there a lot of traffic jams where you live?

[tatsumaru]

2 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

I am sorry to hear that. What have you tried to fix those already?

Do you feel like you want to kill yourself?

True x) You can use imagination. It's certainly interesting to think about what kind of flaws do birds/cheetahs have in their lives, thinking about how they go around doing things. Are there a lot of traffic jams where you live?

I would prefer not to go into what I have tried already as I've been experimenting for 8 years plus and I have a 10 page summary of all my experiments, tests, approaches etc. Suffice it to say I have the equivalent of a PhD in Nutrition in terms of how much I learned because of it.

I wouldn't say I want to kill myself although I fantasize about not existing almost every day. However wanting to kill yourself is something very different which I've only felt twice - first slightly after I graduated high school due to a severe depression and second at the peak of my health meltdown when my body was falling apart and no one could help me and even tried to convince me that I am crazy and I am all fine. I've endured physiological and psychological hell many times and in many ways I am tired now even though I am what you would consider young I feel like I've suffered for 10 lifetimes. On the other hand I decided at one point that there's no point in killing oneself since I am going to die one day any way so I might as well try and learn something from my life even if it become complete hell. I think I would only kill myself if I get something like ALS or suffer some incredibly traumatic injury that completely incapacitates me.

[bejapuskas]

30 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

I would prefer not to go into what I have tried already as I've been experimenting for 8 years plus and I have a 10 page summary of all my experiments, tests, approaches etc. Suffice it to say I have the equivalent of a PhD in Nutrition in terms of how much I learned because of it.

Even things beyond nutrition, like yoga, less screen time? Maybe it's stupid to ask but I really want to make sure you've done it all.

31 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

I wouldn't say I want to kill myself although I fantasize about not existing almost every day. However wanting to kill yourself is something very different which I've only felt twice - first slightly after I graduated high school due to a severe depression and second at the peak of my health meltdown when my body was falling apart and no one could help me and even tried to convince me that I am crazy and I am all fine. I've endured physiological and psychological hell many times and in many ways I am tired now even though I am what you would consider young I feel like I've suffered for 10 lifetimes. On the other hand I decided at one point that there's no point in killing oneself since I am going to die one day any way so I might as well try and learn something from my life even if it become complete hell. I think I would only kill myself if I get something like ALS or suffer some incredibly traumatic injury that completely incapacitates me.

Yes, it is very different and it is alright to feel both, really. And I really like your mindset, I remember also having this kind of safety net ready for myself, it came in handy a couple times. I don't know whether you have people who support you along the way, but feel free to pm me. 

How does your day look like, what do you like to do?