Response and Notes to “Why Libertarianism is Nonsense - Deconstructing Freedom”

[IJB063]

Part One

Warning this will be a long thread

Congrats to anyone who sticks it out till the end

“I give out Atlas Shrugged as Christmas presents, and I make all the interns read it.

Ayn Rand, more than anyone else did a fantastic job of explaining the morality of capitalism, the morality of individualism and this to me is what matters most” - Paul Ryan

 

So I’ve got myself a notebook and pen, and I’m going to going through Leo’s new video in its entirety and posting my notes and thoughts as I do, I consider myself a libertarian. So as I go through each of Leo’s points I’m gonna make some notes on what I think, hopefully this is helpful to anyone reading, show my thought process too, as a libertarian, and hopefully get you guys insight and or meta insight on this as well. So far as I’m writing this I’m only 20 minutes into this 4 hour video and there’s already a lot to unpack. So I’ll keep watching the video, making notes and adding addendums to this post throughout the week.

What I’m going do is when I write out Leo’s points I’m going to put them in italics, to separate from my own thoughts, and any questions that I have I’ll put in bold.

Here’s the video :-

 

0:38 “Libertarianism is an ideology”

 

Leo talks about dropping ideologies, inherent to ideologies is dogmatism and Leo compares ideology to a mind virus. Leo says that one should always think through their worldview, and that libertarianism and ideologies are a worldview. Leo says ideologies hold you back from advancement. Leo says that he’s made a list of epistemological and metaphysical problems with libertarian ideology that he will go into with greater detail. But his critiques aren’t coming from an ideological place. 

 

This reminds me of some Terence McKenna quotes

“Ideology always paves the way toward atrocity”

“I think ideology is toxic, all ideology. It’s not that there are good ones and bad ones. All ideology is toxic, because ideology is a kind of insult to the gift of human free thinking.”

Ideology by its nature precludes its believer from believing its opposite, so you deny the opposites reality, ideology is firmly rooted in ego

But isn’t everything I just said in the previous paragraph ideological, my ideology is that I don’t like ideology, ideology is a part of human experience and to deny that is to deny the truth, I don’t know it seems paradoxical to me.

 

Question are these 

How can you decide to opt out of having an ideology?

If you take an position that’s ideological.

Leo’s says that his critiques aren’t coming from an ideological place but how?

How can you me any ideology is wrong without you yourself having an ideology?

Believing in right and wrong is a truth statement which in it of itself is ideological? 

 

Which Leo later attacks Libertarians later for, for being too idealistic (I’ll come back to this point later). 

Anyways Leo continues from 0:38 - 4:02

 

4:02 Libertarianism Defined

 

Leo uses the wiki definition, here it is…

“Libertarianism (from Latin: libertas, meaning "freedom"), or libertarism (from French: libertaire, meaning "libertarian"), is a political philosophy and movement that upholds libertyas a core principle.[1] Libertarians seek to maximize political freedom and autonomy, emphasizing individualism, freedom of choiceand voluntary association.[2] Libertarians share a skepticism of authority and state power, but they diverge on the scope of their opposition to existing economic and political systems. Various schools of libertarian thought offer a range of views regarding the legitimate functions of state and private power, often calling for the restriction or dissolution of coercive social institutions.”

Leo goes into talking about how there’s a range of thought among Libertarianism. In the degrees in which the support government. But goes into identify what he says are the core pillars which all libertarians share, Im gonna list what I’ve wrote down so far here, and the cover them point by point. 

There’s nothing to be said here as so far it’s just defining terms. Note I’ve only watched 20 mins of the video so far.

 

Core Pillars

 

5:14 

1# Most Libertarians believe freedom is an absolute good. 

2# They treat freedom as an ultimate goal in it of itself. 

3# That taxation is immoral. 

4# Hold personal responsibility highly.

(Cancer patient analogy) 

 

6:51

5# Individualism is good and collectivism is bad

 

8:10 

6# Monopoly of Force

 

10:16

7# Strong notion of inherent alien able rights 

 

10:50

8# Remove Bureaucracy 

 

11:05

9# Smaller government is better.

 

11:20 

10# Unlimited free speech / market place of ideas

 

11:55 

11# Work there way back from their ideals and principles

 

Okay so there are the core pillars that Leo will address in greater detail further in the Vid. I’m going to address them point by point now. Before I do that I’m gonna list what Leo refers to Libertarianism as. 

 

12:51

 

Libertarianism is… 

 

Immature

Juvenile

Naïve

Arrogant 

Entitled 

Ahistorical 

Utopian

Self Biased

Ideological

Masculine 

Biased

Selfish

 

Okey dokey

So I’m now gonna cover these 11 point one by one

Edited July 16, 2020 by IJB063

[IJB063]

Part Two

So point number 1#

5:14 

1# Most Libertarians believe freedom is an absolute good. 

 

So I agree with this, most libertarian, but not all. Now this goes straight into the realm of philosophy and human nature and is no longer just about politics. Now I’m not sure about absolute morality, if there is a true good or bad.

But most people act as though there is and if they didn’t we’d all functionally be sociopathic to act completely morally relativistic. Though I expect Leo will go into greater detail here. 

 

Here’s my idea on principles

You have to have principles that guide your actions, you don't ever fully ignore them and go completely Machiavelli and simply go for the most expedient effective solution . You need to solve the problem first and then apply your principles second.

You’re still making a principled decision but your making the lease shitty choice.

Often when trying to solve very complicated human problems there are no easy or perfect solutions, as Machiavelli points out that very often the good principled people lose throughout human history to evil people because they put their principles first and the solution second instead of vice versa. Simply because those who aren't decent don't have to compromise principles, they are willing to do what others are not and that's why they rise to positions of power. So to put it simply there are no good solutions for important issues directly effected humanity, there are bad solutions and there are worse solutions.

What most people do because of their ideologies and principles (there values like freedom) is they take everything off the table that violates their principles and they are as a result left with no solutions. This is why ideologies fail, this is why Communism can't succeed etc... Because they are only left with half measures and token gestures that waste energy, money and don't solve anything.

There's no point in doing anything if you don't solve the problem, (this is why I completely disagree with Leo’s 11# core pillar, yes I agree that most libertarians do that but most people do that, any people really who believe in objective truth or have an ideology) solutions comes first and they are guided by your principles, you need to be a able to bend and compromise your principles in order to achieve your goals and implement a solution to a problem. Otherwise you lose and others who don't care for your principles and ethics win. If your not willing to solve the problem don't bother. You need to be comfortable and come to terms with the fact that what ever you do, its going to be shitty. Most people use their principles like safety blankets because they're afraid and in cable of doing what is necessary to actually make the world a better place. If the problem was easy to solve it would have been solved a long time ago. The fact that it hasn't been solved is because its going to be difficult, its going to be hard and its going to be shitty, hence the cancer patient analogy, but you have to do what is optimal for a functioning world and for your principle, you have to solve the problem first, there are no perfect answers.

 

So solution first and principles second.

Machiavelli’s Advice For Nice Guys

 

I might make this a separate post on this and ask some separate questions because I don’t want this post to get derailed with argument about absolute good vs bad, I want the focus to be on libertarianism.

Here it is

Also second point on Leo’s core pillar number 1# of most Libertarians believe freedom is an absolute good. 

Most people operate on there values that they hold to be absolute goods.

A communist would hold equality, equity to be their absolute goods.

A fascist would hold stability, conformity, security to be there absolute goods. 

That’s the story that fuel ideology, are the value that underpin the belief system, and why do we have those values, because serve a base biological survival interest. 

For example, take a right wing paleo conservative pro choice Christian, you could hypothetically get them to concede individually several points on the benefits of abortion, e.g. economic benefits, less crime etc… though despite that, as a matter of principle none of that matters to the Christian because no matter what, abortion is wrong. And why do they cling to those absolutes, because it’s a survival mechanism inherent to the average persons psyche. Now this is why I think point 1# is dumb, because this applies to all people, this is not some special blight against libertarianism.

*Note - there’s an interesting lecture I watched on the psychology of belief that if I find I’ll link here, it’s in my OneNote somewhere, note I’m also writing this in OneNote and I’ll post this piece by piece 

Also side note - this is gonna be a tangent but it does somewhat relate to core pillar 1#

Libertarianism is a winners ideology 

This is why earlier you described it as a masculine ideology. Because it’s the ideology of leave me the fuck alone and I’m gonna win. Losers don’t like it because if you don’t hold over people back and let them be free they’ll run circles around you, they’ll make more money than you. They’ll dominate you. That’s why loser are communist and value equality because if you left them on there own they’d fail, if you left libertarians on there own they’d win. 

2 kinds of people

People who want to be left alone and people who won’t leave them the fuck alone

If you disagree, and think that libertarianism is some how an exception to the rule of absolutes and objective morals. How so?

Original American flag

Muh don’t tread on me

Edited July 16, 2020 by IJB063

[TrustTheProcess]

you should watch the whole video before doing this lol

[IJB063]

@louhad

nah, if Leo makes a point that is counter to what I believe, I want to see how it fits with what I’ve said up to that point. Also it shows my thought process, I’m now 35 mins through the video, in the week when I’m playing videogames I think I’m gonna listening to this in the background and write notes

[IJB063]

Part Three

I covered core pillar two in the last post, fuck it I’m skipping point 3# (taxation is theft) for now, I might come back to it later, it’s a boring topic and I agree with the sentiment, I don’t like that taxpayer money goes to line politicians pockets and turn third world children in shithole Middle Eastern countries into hamburger meat. But that’s just me, because I’m one of those juvenile libertarians who want to eliminate that kind of bureaucracy.

Anyways 

 

4# Hold personal responsibility highly.

Most people when they’re told to be responsible for themselves.

Grow a pair of balls people. You’re adults, you don’t need daddy government to save you from yourselves and to give your welfare gimme thats. Make your own money and look after yourselves. In my opinion there are two solutions to people acting poorly and being incapable of looking after themselves.

 

1# Stop them from acting poorly

This is the authoritarian approach

 

2# Let them suffer the natural consequences of acting poorly

This is the Libertarian approach 

 

Which one do you thinks better, and has a history of results?

I’ll hive an example, let’s say you know someone who’s addicted to heroin. You can’t help them, they’ve utterly fucked themselves. All you can do is hope they hit there rock bottom and come clean. What is addiction, it wanting to do something more than you like your health and living. How do you change that?

By making them want their health and their life more than the smack. A lot of heroin addicts rock bottom is death, that’s the tragedy of the addict. Now what’s a better solution?,when someone is addicted to their poor choices. Well it’s not black and white but I believe, by stopping them from acting poorly you cut their growth and don’t let them realise things for themselves. Life is darwinist, there are winners and losers. And the only way you become a winner is when the pain of being a loser supersedes the pain it takes to win. Then you will win. You don’t stop people making mistakes in life, you just to limit the negative effects of their own personal failings on the rest of society. We shouldn’t all be dragged down to the lowest common dominator because of a handful of losers.

Edited July 16, 2020 by IJB063

[IJB063]

Part Four 

5# Individualism is good and collectivism is bad

The rights of the minority vs the rights of the majority.

Leos points are interpretation of the libertarian thought on this is...

“I shouldn’t have to give way to the collective, in so far as I have to it’s wrong, an infringement on my freedoms. Whose to tell me that I’m supposed to sacrifice for some collective, we’re all just individuals” - Libertarian 

The idea is alienable human rights, I know Leo covers this later on and I’ll get to that in a bit. But you don’t have the freedom to oppress, I’ll explain why in a bit, it’s in my notes.

You want a society that operates at maximum efficiency we’re you rights as an individual are protected and align as close as possible with the rights of everyone else, if you want to succeed in life you will have to sacrifice for the collective, you don’t have the right to not sacrifice, that’s what a communist would believe. I can sit on my arse and just give me money for existing and contributing anything to the community, in a libertarian society you have to contribute to succeed and in so far as you contribute you rise, is so far as your parasitical or a devil you fall.

Leo goes on to talk about the free market, and how libertarian sees this as the solution to all problems. I don’t believe it is, some regulation is required in so far as complete freedom violates rights. 

You don’t owe this world anything and this world doesn’t owe you anything. 

[IJB063]

Part Five

8:10

6# Monopoly of Force 

Leo talks about the government control who can and can’t be violent. And that libertarian see the use of force as inherently as immoral, and that they’re inherently moralistic.

I disagree, use of force/violence is only inherently immoral when it’s not justified, it’s not justified when someone alienable individual human rights are violated.

I think Leo in part is conflating anarchist and libertarian with this point, because most libertarian believe that government does have a right to exist. And that it’s purpose is to maintain a military, we too have a collective ability to protect ourselves. Second, to defend people’s inalienable rights and to prevent harm coming to them, though for the most part people, (government are just people, it’s not a magical deity) are so inept that government is so inefficient it tends to do more harm than any gang, cartel or mafia, as Leo mentions by bringing up Brazil, Russia and China etc... 

The reason I support government being in control of the military, courts and police is because some form of organisation is going to prop up and take these things over regardless of what I say. Might as well skip a step and accept that. If we privatised these three things however ran them would be the functional government, so might as well make them public. So yes there are some goods and services that need to be collectivised for the good of society. 

Libertarian aren’t anarchists.

 

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, IJB063 said:

Libertarianism is a winners ideology 

This is why earlier you described it as a masculine ideology. Because it’s the ideology of leave me the fuck alone and I’m gonna win. Losers don’t like it because if you don’t hold over people back and let them be free they’ll run circles around you, they’ll make more money than you. They’ll dominate you. That’s why loser are communist and value equality because if you left them on there own they’d fail, if you left libertarians on there own they’d win. 

Hahahahaha....

Let's see how much of a winner your are when we enslave your children.

If libertarians were left on their own, they would be completely enslaved and exterminated. Because they are gullible fools. Like dodo birds.

[IJB063]

@Leo Gura

The dodo birds are the true kings of the animal kingdom 

They’re not extinct they are just in hiding, waiting and biding their time before they strike and take over

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

enslave your children.

Lol you sound like Moloch

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If libertarians were left on their own

All libertarians want is to be left on our own but you won’t leave us the fuck alone

In seriousness I wish we could test you hypothesis let’s take a group of average libertarians and put them up against your average American voter and let’s see who’d win the battle of group selection

 

 

Damn reading my quote proves I need to proof read more, I put over instead of other lol

Edited July 16, 2020 by IJB063

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, IJB063 said:

All libertarians want is to be left on our own but you won’t leave us the fuck alone

Yeah, because you're part of a COMMUNITY, you self-centered fuck.

Quote

In seriousness I wish we could test you hypothesis let’s take a group of average libertarians and put them up against your average American voter and let’s see who’d win the battle of group selection

This test has already been run. It's called: the last 10,000 years of human history.

Conclusion: You lost.

[IJB063]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yeah, because you're part of a COMMUNITY, you self-centered fuck.

Everyone is self-centered, there are people who are willing to admit it and others who are lying to themselves 

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This test has already been run. It's called: the last 10,000 years of human history.

Conclusion: You lost.

I disagree

I say history is on the libertarians side 

 

Look at the economic freedom index 

Every country that is lassiez faire and respects the individuals rights succeeds 

And every group that doesn’t fails

Power to the individual ✊

Edited July 16, 2020 by IJB063

[TrustTheProcess]

3 minutes ago, IJB063 said:

I say history is on the libertarians side 

Look at the economic freedom index 

lol

[IJB063]

@louhad

4 minutes ago, louhad said:

lol

lol I see your point

The two points are separate, they shouldn’t follow each other

I should of put an additional space between them, which I’ll do now 

Legitimate question

Is there a single country that is mostly economically unfree that you would want to live in?

Edited July 16, 2020 by IJB063

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, IJB063 said:

and others who are lying to themselves

Libertarians.

[IJB063]

@Leo Gura

I got a question 

Would you consider a wild animal free?

At 26:17 you talk about the myth of freedom and that it’s counterintuitive by its nature because one can never be truly free, are animals not free?

[TrustTheProcess]

@IJB063 Here is what lassez faire does:

2 people own more wealth than the bottom 50% of people in america.

Amazon pays 0 dollars in taxes. 

In america, the richest country on earth, we have people dying due to not having access to health care. it costs $3000 to call an ambulance. Drug price inflation is sky high.

We neglect maintaining our infrastructure... it is crumbling all across the country since the Reagan tax cut precedent. 

We have severe k-12 educational inequality. Also, college costs an arm and a leg. People who go to it are typically debt slaves.

 

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by louhad

[Gidiot]

“You don’t owe this world anything and this world doesn’t owe you anything. “

That sounds nice to say but as Sadhguru would say half of your lungs are up in the trees. 
 

We actually need bees and other species of animals and plants to exist to survive, we do at least owe them proliferation. 
 

the fuck everyone but myself attitude has been tried by every 16 year old ever and it usually fails.

[IJB063]

@Leo Gura

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Libertarians.

Hey brother

You yourself said at 14:30 that when you were younger 14-18 that you too were a libertarian, I’m 19. Maybe I haven’t been through the same development yet but I’m trying

When you were describing why you were a libertarian I agreed and resonated completely 

All I believe in is live and let live 

And you do that by living people alone and not fucking with them, it’s none of your business
 

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by IJB063

[TrustTheProcess]

 

2 minutes ago, IJB063 said:

@Leo Gura

I got a question 

Would you consider a wild animal free?

At 26:17 you talk about the myth of freedom and that it’s counterintuitive by its nature because one can never be truly free, are animals not free?

An animal is only as free as its relative position on the food chain allows them to be. 

[IJB063]

@louhad

4 minutes ago, louhad said:

@IJB063 Here is what lassez faire does:

2 people own more wealth than the bottom 50% of people in america.

Amazon pays 0 dollars in taxes. 

In america, the richest country on earth, we have people dying due to not having access to health care. it costs $3000 to call an ambulance. Drug price inflation is sky high.

We neglect maintaining our infrastructure... it is crumbling all across the country since the Reagan tax cut precedent. 

We have severe k-12 educational inequality. Also, college costs an arm and a leg. People who go to it are typically debt slaves.

 

 

My phones on 1% I’ll respond to this tomorrow