Why is murder wrong?

[Vagos]

I was having a discussion on Saturday with a smart, caring, otherwise philanthropist friend that is also on the path to enlightenment and self actualization that believed murder is not inherently wrong provided that the individual being killed does not have any relatives/friends and is killed instantly.

The dialog went somewhat like this:

 

Her: Since death seen from a non-dual perspective can not be regarded as something wrong or bad and that since for something to be wrong or bad it has to produce and be connected with suffering and pain, usual death is only bad for the people left behind that lose their loved one and not for the victim itself. Therefore in the hypothetical scenario that the individual does not have any friends/family left behind there is nothing wrong with killing them.

Me: This action is coming from a problematic consciousness of Egoic perspective, not from an enlightened human being. An enlightened human being does not have any interest in specific future outcomes and constantly surrenders to every present moment whatever that might be. So they do not have any reason to kill someone, there is no interest for them in that.

Her: Nevertheless them/their body performs actions like eating, walking and so on, doesn't that have a purpose? 

Me: Yes, although from their perspective every purpose is game-like and not a serious rigid purpose like other people have. They/their body will still choose a narrative to live in, through making decisions like walking etc (brought up Jung's jokester archetype also) but they would gladly take every future event as happily as the next one.

Her: So why wouldn't that apply in the future event of them painlessly killing a homeless person with no human connections? Basically isn't that as well an act of Love from their perspective? Why would that be a scenario to be avoided? Isn't destroying the whole Earth really an act of unconditional Love as much as it is to save it? 

At this point I had to admit that she was right since I did not see a mistake in her thought process but for some reason I'm still not convinced that this is the case.

Would love to hear @Leo Gura 's opinion on this. Thanks!

[Leo Gura]

Wrong is invented by your mind.

But do keep in mind how you'd feel if someone murdered your mom.

[Apparition of Jack]

@Vagos Premature death can still be counter-productive because then you'll have to deal with your karma in the next life (if you accept reincarnation), making it harder to self-actualise and awaken. Like Leo has said survival isn't just about survival, it's also about transcendence, which you can't do if you die.

Of course you're right from an Absolute perspective there's no difference between saving the earth and destroying it, but so long as people haven't yet awakened and burnt off their karma there'll also be reasons to keep people alive, at least on the relative plane.

[Vagos]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Wrong is invented by your mind.

But do keep in mind how you'd feel if someone murdered your mom.

But would an enlightened being ever kill someone ?

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Vagos said:

But would an enlightened being ever kill someone ?

An enlightened being is free to do whatever they want.

[Consept]

An enlightened being is free to kill yes, theyre not tied to any arbitrary idea of right or wrong. However they are in touch with others and feel a lot of compassion, not only in the case of another's suffering but also in that they would want the living thing to complete its life cycle and learn what it needs to in its life. 

I feel that if an enlightened being wanted to go around killing unconnected unhappy, homeless people, it will be hard to do just as an action of killing someone and the idea that you're making the decision. Perhaps if someone was suffering intensely and wanted to die, it would still be difficult but I can see that being a more realistic scenario 

[Gesundheit]

There are cases where murder is not only right but a necessity. For example, the human race as a whole is a mistake that should be wiped out completely without questioning or doubts.

Btw where's that nuclear button?!

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

For example, the human race as a whole is a mistake that should be wiped out completely without questioning or doubts.

[Opo]

13 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

For example, the human race as a whole is a mistake that should be wiped out completely without questioning or doubts.

Btw where's that nuclear button?!

Think about the animals. 

You need to find a better way. 

[Display_Name]

Thought experiment:

if you could press a button, that somewhere unknown on earth, would kill someone. Completely untraceable, you never even hear about it, but someone dies. And you get 100 Million dollars for pressing the button. Would you press it?

[Opo]

2 minutes ago, Display_Name said:

Thought experiment:

if you could press a button, that somewhere unknown on earth, would kill someone. Completely untraceable, you never even hear about it, but someone dies. And you get 100 Million dollars for pressing the button. Would you press it?

Wanted to say no but you could save more than 1 life with that money so yes. 

[Shiva99]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

But would an enlightened being ever kill someone ?

If reality feels the need to kill someone with your "vessel" it will happen.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Display_Name said:

Thought experiment:

if you could press a button, that somewhere unknown on earth, would kill someone. Completely untraceable, you never even hear about it, but someone dies. And you get 100 Million dollars for pressing the button. Would you press it?

[removing my humorous comment to avoid future out-of-context quoting by devils]

[VerballyHazardous]

@Leo Gura

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes! If it is a libertarian

If they get killed it's their fault, and they should take responsibilty for that, like a true libertarian.

[Display_Name]

Just now, Opo said:

Wanted to say no but you could save more than 1 life with that money so yes. 

[Display_Name]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

[removing my humorous comment to avoid future out-of-context quoting by devils]

hahahaha

[Free Mind]

2 hours ago, Display_Name said:

Thought experiment:

if you could press a button, that somewhere unknown on earth, would kill someone. Completely untraceable, you never even hear about it, but someone dies. And you get 100 Million dollars for pressing the button. Would you press it?

FUCK yeah. LOL

[28 cm unbuffed]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

An enlightened being is free to do whatever they want.

Why is it that way? Let's say, that I'm enlightened, then I recognize, that I am just a part of everything and that everything is me. 

1. Why would I want to kill myself (other than saving thousands of myselves, but how can I really know, which life / lives are "worth" more)

2. I am enlightened, so I understand that everything is me. I eat myself, I dump myself, I fuck myself. I will have no issue with killing myself, I do that every day like millions of times (bacterias, etc.). But still - on a larger scale, that can be damaging to the world. Or it doesn't - I have no idea if killing someone will not make sense in 5000 years. Do I do everything intuitively, without giving a fuck about myself when I'm enlightened, trusting the bigger plan, like all the time? This is how it works?

I just know, I just let go, I just do, 24/7?

3. Enlightenment is like finishing your life mission, the end goal, you did it, you won, so you can do whatever the fuck you want, without consequences, that's your reward for hard work.

Edited July 13, 2020 by 28 cm unbuffed

[Gesundheit]

@28 cm unbuffed The thing is that everyone is free to do whatever they want, only unenlightened people choose to set limits for that so they suppress what they authentically want without even knowing. Morality is but one way of creating such suppression. And that is not a bug or a bad thing.

[28 cm unbuffed]

@Gesundheit

Ok, so by that, you mean, that I can kill whoever I want, it's not a bad thing, it's just stupid and it creates karma, right?