What Do You Think Of Feminism?

[Osaid]

Feminism simply means equality for both men and women, which is a nice ideal. There are very radical versions of "feminism" which seem to have given it a bad rep though.

[Leo Gura]

Before anyone criticizes feminism here, please tell us how many books on feminism you've read.

[Recursoinominado]

50 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Before anyone criticizes feminism here, please tell us how many books on feminism you've read.

What about direct experiences, contemplation etc?

Books vs real life, big difference, especially talking about social-political ideas.

I have a LOT of female friends that are also firmly feminists (a lot of activists) and, in my experience, what I see is: virtue signaling, extreme victim mentality, demonization of men, delusion, lack of basic knowledge of history and human nature, unwillingness to discuss ideas, very dogmatic behavior etc.

Now, i do support a good 80% of the ideas, i do recognize that women have gotten a bad hand in some cases and i want all of them to prosper and be happy, just not in the expense of anyone.

In my opinion, most feminists are driven by unconscious anger/jealously/fear of men and thus are extremely biased but don't ever admit, which makes me not want to be explicitly on their side. Not to say also that they don't have reasons, some of those even confessed that they suffered abuse, which i have a lot of empathy as i too suffered abuse by men and women, but i cannot accept this as a valid reason to be at war with an entire gender for it.

 

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Before anyone criticizes feminism here, please tell us how many books on feminism you've read.

how many books critiquing feminism have you read?

[Leo Gura]

The problem is you guys don't even know what feminism is. Yet you feel confident attacking it.

[Extreme Z7]

@Leo Gura Do you plan to make a video on Feminism at some point?

[remember]

yes of course, does the term feminism have a negative connotation? if so then actually why is this a stigmatization? feminists fight for women’s rights, they are triggered to a point by negative and abusive behavior towards women in society sometimes domestic abuse, but not only that they ask for equal rights as a different kind of human, or is it called huwomanty? no it’s humanity. which does not mean all women or all men are equal - if men get triggered by that and start shaming women for getting progressive about sometimes even systemic abuse what actually does make that of the men? masculists? the problem with shaming feminists for adopting an more agressive point of view is in reality not their aggressive style it’s because it’s an aggressive style of a woman. which is one of the problems which in the first place created feminism, because that’s already a problem for many men.

and it’s really strange for women how men seem to resist the possibility that getting triggered by a feminist is already backwards and the attempt to controll female narratives.

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Extreme Z7 said:

@Leo Gura Do you plan to make a video on Feminism at some point?

I don't see the point.

If you want to understand it, go read about its history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

[Gesundheit]

Only weak men would not want women to be strong.

[Apparition of Jack]

@Gesundheit What a lot of guys think of "masculine power" comes at the expense of feminine power, but any power than relies on suppressing another isn't actually power at all

[w4read]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The problem is you guys don't even know what feminism is. Yet you feel confident attacking it.

Feminism, pick up, socialism, conservativism, MRAs, right extremists... At some point you gotta ask yourself what's the point of using all these terms though, when there are so huge diversity in how these words are used and perceived. Like, if I tell a crowd of 20 people that I'm a "feminist" or that I do "pick up ", and those 20 people have totally different definitions/views on those terms, wouldn't it then be better if I said " I'm a huge believer of equal rights and I feel like we still have a long way to go" or " I really enjoy approaching girls and getting to share my authentic self and by that giving both her and my self a pleasant experience which could potentially lead to something more"? It would obviously make the communication more clear at least.

[Leo Gura]

55 minutes ago, w4read said:

Feminism, pick up, socialism, conservativism, MRAs, right extremists... At some point you gotta ask yourself what's the point of using all these terms though, when there are so huge diversity in how these words are used and perceived. Like, if I tell a crowd of 20 people that I'm a "feminist" or that I do "pick up ", and those 20 people have totally different definitions/views on those terms, wouldn't it then be better if I said " I'm a huge believer of equal rights and I feel like we still have a long way to go" or " I really enjoy approaching girls and getting to share my authentic self and by that giving both her and my self a pleasant experience which could potentially lead to something more"? It would obviously make the communication more clear at least.

Congrats! You've discovered the trade-off between brevity and clarity.

"I'm a huge believer of equal rights and I feel like we still have a long way to go" << even if you said that every time instead of "feminism" you'd still be stuck with a lack of clarity. Now you'd have to define "equal rights" and "a long way to go".

In fact, you in order to get full clarity you would have to define every single term in your entire worldview/mind. But you'd be dead before then. And still, people would misunderstand you because they lack your reference experiences used to define the terms.

The mind is a slippery beast. Which is why this stuff gets argued about for ages without resolution.

[w4read]

@Leo Gura haha LOL!

But seriously though, what do you think about how these words are used? You feel like the brevity outweighs the lack of clarity? 

I know I said that I think feminist should keep the word regardless of how it is colored, but the more i think about it, the more i feel like it should adopt to how people perceive it. I mean, after all, the most important thing is to be understood, isn't it?

[Rilles]

Were stuck with using these terms, otherwise people wont understand you, unfortunately Feminism is badly colored, but so is Socialism, use it anyway, be bold, own that word. 

10 hours ago, Recursoinominado said:

What about direct experiences, contemplation etc?

Contemplation isnt enough, you need to know what youre contemplating. 

Books vs real life, big difference, especially talking about social-political ideas.

Both needed. 

I have a LOT of female friends that are also firmly feminists (a lot of activists) and, in my experience, what I see is: virtue signaling, extreme victim mentality, demonization of men, delusion, lack of basic knowledge of history and human nature, unwillingness to discuss ideas, very dogmatic behavior etc.

Dont put all feminists into one basket. 

Now, i do support a good 80% of the ideas, i do recognize that women have gotten a bad hand in some cases and i want all of them to prosper and be happy, just not in the expense of anyone.

You cant avoid expense, thats the sacrifice we have to make, thats freedom. The freedom to not cat-call women feels sour for men who have done it all their life and think its okay. 

In my opinion, most feminists are driven by unconscious anger/jealously/fear of men and thus are extremely biased but don't ever admit, which makes me not want to be explicitly on their side. Not to say also that they don't have reasons, some of those even confessed that they suffered abuse, which i have a lot of empathy as i too suffered abuse by men and women, but i cannot accept this as a valid reason to be at war with an entire gender for it.

Thats just like... Your opinion, man. 

 

 

[Gesundheit]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

In fact, you in order to get full clarity you would have to define every single term in your entire worldview/mind. But you'd be dead before then. And still, people would misunderstand you because they lack your reference experiences used to define the terms.

The mind is a slippery beast. Which is why this stuff gets argued about for ages without resolution.

That's still assuming that people who "misunderstand" actually do lack the ability to comprehend, and are not simply blatantly distorting things on purpose or at least are unconsciously biased. Unfortunately, and especially in politics, most of the time it's the ego not the mind that creates problems, which makes mutual understanding even more difficult to achieve. It would have been a little bit easier to solve if pure ignorance was the actual problem.

[w4read]

11 minutes ago, Rilles said:

Were stuck with using these terms, otherwise people wont understand you, unfortunately Feminism is badly colored, but so is Socialism, use it anyway, be bold, own that word.

You're not stuck using any word lol. 

Any of those words can be replaced with one or two sentences that gives more nuance than the word itself. The example I mentioned with pick up is obviously going to be more accurately received, than if i just say "sometimes I do pick up", because that could easily be interpreted as "I manipulate girls into sleeping with me".

Now, some people will, even though I make a better discription still go back and say, "oh wait, isn't that pick up?", and then were back to scratch, but then at least I tried my best to give a more accurate description.

[Rilles]

8 minutes ago, w4read said:

You're not stuck using any word lol. 

Any of those words can be replaced with one or two sentences that gives more nuance than the word itself. The example I mentioned with pick up is obviously going to be more accurately received, than if i just say "sometimes I do pick up", because that could easily be interpreted as "I manipulate girls into sleeping with me".

Now, some people will, even though I make a better discription still go back and say, "oh wait, isn't that pick up?", and then were back to scratch, but then at least I tried my best to give a more accurate description.

Yeah... so you basically just proved that youre stuck with it.

"I want equality for women"

"isnt that feminism?"

"Yes"

"Well thats bad, feminism is man-hating"

The only way to solve this is to educate people on what feminism is really about but people dont want to learn it because the negative bias goes too deep, its become a dirty word. 

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Rilles

[saish]

@Leo Gura Hi Leo. Slightly off topic. Didnt wanna start a new topic just to ask you this. I was watching your How to get started with self actualization over 40 techniques. You said you are working on a subconscious mind course. Is it still is pipeline. Will we see it coming soon ? I am very interested it this field. I am a practitioner of visualization and it payed off amazingly well. I started it watching your visualization video. 

[Farnaby]

Nothing is black or white. I think if there's some rejection towards feminism it can be due to different reasons: 

1) not knowing anything about it and just parroting other people's ideas

2) prejudices (learnt). Fear of the unknown and attachment to the traditional life.

3) seeing both sides of a phenomenom, it's positive and negative aspects. I don't think that people who are against some aspects of feminism are necessarily ignorant, right-wing, macho people. 

I personally feel aligned with feminist values (gender equality, etc.), but I've also had some direct and indirect experiences with toxic behavior from so called feminists.

Of course, this can be said about any ideology and that's why I would never say "feminism sucks" or anything like that. I'm just aware of how any ideology can be picked up by people who attach so much to it, that they get kind of brainwashed, manifest group thinking, low tolerance and no critical thinking. 

I've seen this in many different groups (actually I think it happens in all groups): catholics, muslims, vegans, feminists, homophobes, right-wing, left-wing, etc.

To say that feminism is "bad" or destructive is really biased IMO. But, all ideologies carry risks and I think it's good to be aware of them. 

I think a big problem is that there are many transgenerational wounds that aren't healed, due to women being inequally treated and even opressed. As long as that "trauma" isn't healed, it's easy to unconsciously use feminism to justify an anti-men, anti-masculinity attitude. Someone talked about ego-backlash and I think he's right. 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Farnaby

[w4read]

@Rilles You're right. If people try hard enough, they can put all sorts of labels on you. And in the end it's up to them whether or not they are open to actually hear your words for what they are. And yes, if people read the text book description and the history of the movement there probably wouldn't be any problem at all if they came in to it with an open mind.

In the mean time i will try to use a more precise vocabulary and try as best as i can not to be dragged into a labeling contest. So if someone has a different view on feminism, well hey, than I'm not a feminist in their view. I don't feel the need to claim any word, i just want to be understood and also understand.