Vaush on Fascism

[Leo Gura]

So I've been listening a lot to Vaush over the last week and although he is overly edgy and overly stuck in Green, he's got some pretty astute and brilliant insight into certain aspects of politics.

I found the following video particularly insightful:

Vaush is making me think more deeply about what fascism really entails and how sneaky it is. And while I still think he over-uses that term, I'm also starting to see an undeniable slippery slope between right-wing populism and fascism.

Is there really such as thing as right-wing populism which will not devolve into xenophobia, racism, and authoritarianism? I'd like to think so, but I'm not as certain of that as I used to be. These new right-wing populists can be very sneaky with their messaging. After all, if someone was a true populist why wouldn't he support someone like Bernie or AOC? Right-wing populists are nationalists first and populists second. Otherwise they'd be left-wing populists.

Anyways... just some food for thought.

If you overlook Vaush's excessive edginess and hyperbole, he has some of the most sophisticated political analysis I've seen on YT.

[Roy]

23 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Is there really such as thing as right-wing populism which will not devolve into xenophobia, racism, and authoritarianism? I'd like to think so, but I'm not as certain of that as I used to be.

Isn't that what most of the right-wing populism in America is now? A lot of Republicans will PUBLICLY denounce xenophobia, racism, and authoritarianism, and I'm sure the majority of them don't actually have a racist bone in their body.

But like you said it's sneaky - In the back of their minds (unconscious or not), they're probably just happy to get more votes in the ballot box and more campaign money from donations, even if it's from Neo-Nazis. Because we can't have those lefties winning can we!?!

The line is basically the environment in which the politics is taking place. If there is heat in the air and things start to get nasty (violent) we see peoples true colours and who is willing to slide into fascism. How far are they willing to bend or abandon their principles in order to get what they want?

Edited July 10, 2020 by Roy

[Hank Galaxy Brain]

Looking at a video of someone deconstructing a video of someone deconstructing a video... on my computer screen. What has life come to? This is so post-modern and bizarre.

I've wanted to complete the circle before at times. Make an orobourous of a reality tv show about the filming of a reality tv show about the filming of a reality tv show about the filming of a reality tv show about the filming of the reality tv show at the beginning of this sentence.

Mwahahahahahaha.

Edit: The guy who's video we're deconstructing is deconstructing someone else's criticism of the show. Holy shit! And now I'm deconstructing the whole thing. We're like 7 levels removed from reality here. 2020 man.

 

 

Edited July 10, 2020 by Hank Galaxy Brain
Galaxy Brain

[Hank Galaxy Brain]

Alright so this is really interesting commentary.

"Yes, republican voters are fascists... If we had weaker institutions, like say for example, Weimar Germany did, YES, this would be a fascist country 100%... Republicans are fascists. Easily, yea. I'm not breaking bread with these people. Fuck them. These people's brains are broken. I don't want to work with them. They don't share my solutions. And they don't care about workers rights."

Lots of this is true and needs to be said (although not the verbal abuse).

What Vaush seems to be getting at is this very real, emotional level, experiential reality: Those of us that want economic populism--we have a very deep and real anger for right wing populists/fascists. We're utterly opposed to that ideology, because it's is harmful and dangerous. Any relationship built across those lines is utterly superficial.

I felt that when the country was in chaos. When some people I knew plugged their ears and ignored. Others concentrated on looters. Ultimately, my core mission hear on this planet has nothing to do with those people. They are of no service in my life, and they often outright oppose me and human dignity. If push comes to shove I would be forced to defend against them in a physical altercation or a civil war. We are not friends. We act polite around eachother. That is all. And that's lurking just beneath the surface of many many relationships in this country.

We're not far, psychologically, from a civil war. I can see how things can escalate to brothers killing brothers and children selling out parents. It's brutal. And this is what Kyle misses. He's trying to have tea with the enemy. If someone is sitting at the table advocating kicking children with no regards to facts or evidence, you have to hold them accountable. That has no place in reasoned discussion. To act otherwise is nothing short of enabling. And a culture of enabling is necessary for fascism to arise. That's part of it.

So, fundamentally, Kyle doesn't seem to have an experiential understanding of reciprocity and boundaries: if fascists intellectually punch you in the face and piss on democracy on your show, while claiming they're being reasonable, you can't just sit they're smiling. You have to respond appropriately with strong boundaries. If you're going to engage in rational debate, do it with those who will reciprocate. Otherwise you're throwing pearls at swine, and stage red right wing populist types sniff out weakness like sharks to blood. They take advantage. They run wild. Vaush seems to get this at the experiential level. You can hear it in the tone of his voice. Much more masculine, confident, grounded in things that are meaningful, grounded in the everyday experience of poor and working people. When these things are reality to you, it comes naturally. Kyle is much more airy, high pitched, and even his face looks polite--all like he's pandering to others' opinion.

However, what Vaush misses is that it is not the person who is the enemy. It is the ideology. And we must maintain our boundaries against these red types (that's the only thing they will respect) and from that place treat them with compassion as tantrumming children. Some will be willing to self reflect and change, and others won't. It's not our responsibility to save those who won't. All we can do is protect ourselves and our societies from the destructive aspects of their egos. This is the "high consciousness" thing to do. It is not honest or true to try to coerce someone's belief system, who does not wish to be coerced. These right wing types are often not open to change. The best thing to do is the honest one: break off the relationship, and tell them exactly why. Ask them to leave your show until they can have rational beliefs. You have to have rules or society crumbles--they should know that of all people.

Vaush also misses that it is not Republicans who are fascists, they are merely enabling the fascists. The average Republican doesn't support voter suppression, and probably isn't aware that they only want economic reform for certain groups. The ones in power does and is. They take advantage of their blindness, their ego, their narcissism and they play to it for political gain. They're being abused, and they've fallen in love with the abuser. And who the abuser tells them they are. If you want to help them, you have to see them as oppressed by a sort of ideological cult and seek to liberate them. This takes extreme compassion and responsibility, you have to be extremely stable in yourself to get past all the ugliest ego defenses they'll throw at you and be able to genuinely act with compassion. Big heart energy is what I call it. But you do it, you establish a strong frame of advancing humanity, sticking up for the downtrodden and seeing through illusion and you offer it to them. And if they don't take it, ruthlessly do what is appropriate to stop whatever danger they are posing. Punishment should meet the crime. Reciprocity. Offer the carrot, but have the stick ready in the other hand. And if they're not bothering anyone else, then leave them, for the love of god, alone.

/rant

[Leo Gura]

Careful though about framing this as the good guys vs the enemy. The problem is that Vaush is polarizing his listeners too much, making them see the right-wing as "the enemy". This will make it impossible to govern half the country.

Of course most right-wingers are not consciously, intentionally fascist. But their ideology makes it easy for them to become soft supports of fascist leaders. Trump has a 90% approval rating in his own party, which is a very troubling sign. So while most right wingers will never explicitly say they support fascism, many of them can be fooled into voting a fascist into office because they have nationalist sympathies and the culture wars can be used to trick them into voting for those who will own those scary crazy Libs. 

Fascists love to pander to and stoke up the natural ethnocentric fears that roughly half of any given country has. Propaganda channels like Fox News will stroke up these fears to the point where otherwise moderate folks become confused and start acting to defend against those fears.

[remember]

the moment you start really getting into understanding fascism you start to see it everywhere until the point you start to see it developing in yourself. - that’s not a quote that’s a phenomenon.

people tend to use the term nazi for fascists very often but in sense of political right wing ideology there is a small difference between them, which actually only showed in their far far extreme. fascism is not systemic murder, yet, although fascism can go to the point of quieting another’s opinion by systemic force, torture and this leading to another kind of systemic murder which is justified by making the systemic structure of it a row of single cases. while naziism is social darwinism fascism is national darwinism in some sense the difference is the excess of fascistoid outplay. so if analyzing the underlying psychosocial dynamics about soft fascism and hard fascism it gets really messy, especially as fascism is always supported through codependency. you could def say the middle of the right is probably more in a codependency than being really fascists, but then again if that supports fascist tendencies, where to draw the line? - fascism usually tends to escalate into one or the other form of political oppression of at least free speech - if free speech is used against itself it is def getting crazily difficult to stop fascistoid opinion from doing its work as free speech would need to allow itself to enslave itself.

not all fascists are nazis, but all nazis are fascists and even if it might never reach that extreme the possibility of it is already existing in the structure of fascism.

[Hank Galaxy Brain]

28 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Careful though about framing this as the good guys vs the enemy. The problem is that Vaush is polarizing his listeners too much, making them see the right-wing as "the enemy".

Exactly, that's what I'm getting at at the end. Not the enemy but someone who is engaging in bad faith, or is enabling fascism/abuse. Or whose unwieldy ego is way up in everyone else's boundaries and requires defending against.

 

[Rilles]

Vaush is awesome, the whole Breadtube movement has helped me gain more interest in researching Left-Wing talking points like Systemic Racism and Feminism, which I kind of shrugged off in the past. 

[Scholar]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 After all, if someone was a true populist why wouldn't he support someone like Bernie or AOC? Right-wing populists are nationalists first and populists second. Otherwise they'd be left-wing populists.

Why are you not using Spiral Dynamics here? Populism is basically a reaction to excessive aspects of orange, which makes people retreat to blue or progress to green.

 

Obviously someone at blue orange will not be voting for someone with orange green values. I don't understand what you mean by "true populist".

[Robi Steel]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Vaush is making me think more deeply about what fascism really entails and how sneaky it is. And while I still think he over-uses that term, I'm also starting to see an undeniable slippery slope between right-wing populism and fascism.

Is there really such as thing as right-wing populism which will not devolve into xenophobia, racism, and authoritarianism? I'd like to think so, but I'm not as certain of that as I used to be. These new right-wing populists can be very sneaky with their messaging. After all, if someone was a true populist why wouldn't he support someone like Bernie or AOC? Right-wing populists are nationalists first and populists second. Otherwise they'd be left-wing populists.

People who call everyone they disagree with a fascist and use intimidation tactics  = not authoritarian

People who defend free speech and want small government = authoritarian

I thought you were getting sick of Libertarians and their stupid notions of freedom? Now you cry that they will become authoritarians, pick one.

Do you even watch the alternative sources that we post here sometimes btw? Just curious. Im worried about you Leo. Update your sources on politics. 

Im not saying this to upset you, you know

Edited July 10, 2020 by Robi Steel

[remember]

4 minutes ago, Robi Steel said:

People who call everyone they disagree with a fascist and use intimidation tactics  = not authoritarian

yes that’s why it’s liberal fascism.

it must actually be true to be not liberal fascism. fascism is always authoritarian even if hidden.

Edited July 10, 2020 by remember

[Robi Steel]

@remember There is no such thing as liberal fascism. There are liberal right and left-wingers. There are authoritarian right and left-wingers. On the right they are called fascists, on the left they are called communists 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

Why are you not using Spiral Dynamics here? Populism is basically a reaction to excessive aspects of orange, which makes people retreat to blue or progress to green.

There are different kinds of populism at different stages.

Green populism is very different from Blue populism.

Blue populism is nationalistic, ethnocentric, racist, xenophobic, anti-immigrant, anti-gay, anti-minority, anti-feminist, anti-relativist. Fascistic.

Green populism is globalist, inclusive, socialistic, pro-immigrant, pro-gay, pro-minority, pro-feminist. Bernie Sanders & AOC.

24 minutes ago, Robi Steel said:

People who call everyone they disagree with a fascist and use intimidation tactics  = not authoritarian

People who defend free speech and want small government = authoritarian

I thought you were getting sick of Libertarians and their stupid notions of freedom? Now you cry that they will become authoritarians, pick one.

There's what people believe and say, and then there's what actually happens.

In practice right-wingers are not for small government, even though they love to talk about it.

Yeah, the Trump admin is full of libertarian-leaning folks, and yet Trump would not hesitate to become an authoritarian. That's the trick. You assume there is some kind of integrity to these right-wing ideologies when there isn't. They are opportunistic, selfish, and power-hungry. As the naive libertarians weaken the state, that allows an authoritarian boss to swoop in and fill the power vacuum. Libertarians become the useful idiots of serious fascists and authoritarians.

[zeroISinfinity]

When I see this greatful for enlightenment silly human stuff and games. Thank goodness.

[Akemrelax]

3 hours ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

It is absolutely possible for right wing populism to not dissolve into Fascism but it's incredibly easy for that to happen.

Vaush is brilliant but he keeps calling normal well rounded and meaningful conservatives Fascists and Nazis. No Vaush, my Grandma who is a Russian Nationalist is not a Fascist.

But populism is about us vs them, the elites. So in right wing populism, the us is inevitably us as in the nation, so I can see how that might dissolve into some nativity tenancies.   

 

Yes.

Left populism can dissolve into fascism too. Did it not happen in Soviet Union, French Revolution, China, and many more?

These are the things JP and others constantly criticize the left for.  

[TrustTheProcess]

@Akemrelax True, context though. the type of left wing populism in Russia that gave rise to stalin can't be compared to say Bernie Sanders style populism. 

When you look at trump style populism though, it seems scarily analogous to the rise of right wing fascists such as hitler.

[Akemrelax]

9 minutes ago, louhad said:

@Akemrelax True, context though. the type of left wing populism in Russia that gave rise to stalin can't be compared to say Bernie Sanders style populism. 

When you look at trump style populism though, it seems scarily analogous to the rise of right wing fascists such as hitler.

That’s exactly what a left winger would say.

No it doesn’t. Sure, there are some authoritarians on the right but as a whole it’s not the same as Nazism. Although it’s in the same boat you could say. I would say most conservatives in USA are annoyed by feminist PC culture and want less immigrants, not necessarily fascist demands. That’s why perspective is important.

If you want Nazi like populism you should look at India.

My point was fascism can arise from left or right populism, not just from the right as Vaush said. 

Edited July 10, 2020 by Akemrelax

[Akemrelax]

9 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

That wasn’t Fascism

Oh yes, you’re right.

I guess we could say authoritarianism then.

[Robi Steel]

1 hour ago, louhad said:

True, context though. the type of left wing populism in Russia that gave rise to stalin can't be compared to say Bernie Sanders style populism. 

When you look at trump style populism though, it seems scarily analogous to the rise of right wing fascists such as hitler.

It cant be compared to Bernie Sanders, it can be compared to his radical left-wing college communist followers. They proclaimed that "American cities would burn if Bernie wasn't elected", and now they do. 

Trump is just as unlikely to become fascist as Bernie is. You guys clearly see him through a left-wing lens. 

11 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

That wasn’t Fascism

Youre right, technically it was communism although that doesnt differ much from fascism in its pure state.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Robi Steel

[TrustTheProcess]

1 minute ago, Robi Steel said:

It cant be compared to Bernie Sanders, it can be compared to his radical left-wing college communist followers. They proclaimed that "American cities would burn if Bernie wasn't elected", and now they do. 

Trump is just as unlikely to become fascist as Bernie is. You guys clearly see him through a left-wing lens. 

Youre right, technically it was communism although that doesnt differ much from fascism in its pure state.

lol, radical left wing college kids who want free health care, free high quality education, criminal justice reform, an end to corporate influence in politics, an end to american militarism.... What do you mean by "they", you have never actually met any "radical left wing college communist" from america in your life, have you?