Questions about Libertarianism video

[Nivsch]

1. Leo you said that oppression is only relative to one's identity and that there is no such a thing as oppression in the absolute sense. 

But what about the slaves themselves? Can it be that they don't feel oppressed, Or at least most or part of them don't feel it?

It seems to me that in the physcial sense they must feel oppressed anyway.

2. You said that whats "wrong" is only a reault of culture and education. But relatively speaking, as we raised our consciousness, we started to see that slavery is more wrong than not-slavery.

Means - its not that it is equal - and slavery and not-slavery are right/wrong equally, its our upgraded Consciousness that chose a side and eventually chose to reduce and eliminate slavery. Because we became more aware and our sense of self expanded to the slaves.

Slave owners didn't see that their slaves were suffering? Or they did see but didnt care?

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

1. Leo you said that oppression is only relative to one's identity and that there is no such a thing as oppression in the absolute sense. 

But what about the slaves themselves? Can it be that they don't feel oppressed, Or at least most or part of them don't feel it?

It seems to me that in the physcial sense they must feel oppressed anyway.

Sure, slaves probably feel oppressed.

But the point is that the slave masters don't feel they are doing anything wrong. They feel entitled to having slaves in the same way that you feel entitled to eating plants and animals. You don't feel you're doing anything wrong when you eat a carrot. Neither does a slave master.

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2. You said that whats "wrong" is only a result of culture and education. But relatively speaking, as we raised our consciousness, we started to see that slavery is more wrong than not-slavery.

Means - its not that it is equal - and slavery and not-slavery are right/wrong equally, its our upgraded Consciousness that chose a side and eventually chose to reduce and eliminate slavery. 

Which means that free the slaves IS a more conscious behaving than hold slaves, it just took time for us to SEE it. So its not the both sides of the coin that are right equally. There is levels of realization and discovery here. 

A) That's still all relative.

B) Humans can only raise their consciousness like that through education and cultural evolution, which requires massive social infrastructure. You can't have the majority of humans become conscious enough to realize that slavery is selfish without first building a massive government which educates them about such things and provides them systems, regulations, and controls to meet their selfish needs in more kind ways.

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Also, slave owners didn't see that their slaves were suffering?

Do you see that ants are suffering when you build your house on their anthill? You are too selfish to care.

Ego generally does not care about collateral damage.

[AlwaysBeNice]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Sure, slaves probably feel oppressed.

But the point is that the slave masters don't feel they are doing anything wrong. They feel entitled to having slaves in the same way that you feel entitled to eating plants and animals. You don't feel you're doing anything wrong when you eat a carrot. Neither does a slave master.

A) That's still all relative.

B) Humans can only raise their consciousness like that through education and cultural evolution, which requires massive social infrastructure. You can't have the majority of humans become conscious enough to realize that slavery is selfish without first building a massive government which educates them about such things and provides them systems, regulations, and controls to meet their selfish needs in more kind ways.

Do you see that ants are suffering when you build your house on their anthill? You are too selfish to care.

Ego generally does not care about collateral damage.

Are ants? Highly doubt.

I had some experience of animal consciousness, once on Ayahuasca and once in a dream shortly later, from that it seems animals may actually not suffer, totally zen unconditional love. 

Though it's hard to imagine dire circumstances wouldn't be very hard on them, i know teachers who have said the same or similar things, i.e. James Swartz, David Spero insinuated it, Naropa also, could be so I think, I mean humans have the ability to withstand pain without suffering as well, though animals do respond to love and pleasure and pain still , 

[Nivsch]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Do you see that ants are suffering when you build your house on their anthill? You are too selfish to care.

But when you stand aside a man (a slave) that have 99.99% anatomy just like you, how can you not reflect his physical pain onto yourself? It supposed to be instinctive trough your mirror neurons.

It seems to me that its more complex than this, and that even 2000 years ago, slave owners, as a minority (in analogy to nowadays - slaghter house workers) kept their thing far from other people eyes, so most of the population didnt see it, but if they saw it, at least a decent part of the population wouldn't support it. 

Like today - most people won't support slaughterhouse if they see it in their eyes. Why that it will not be the same in the slavery issue 2000 years ago?

Edited July 9, 2020 by Nivsch

[TrustTheProcess]

@Nivsch The key was that slave owners considered slaves to be subhuman-- not worthy of empathy and incapable of experiencing pain the way that you or your loved ones do. I think that the mirror neurons evolved to apply to the "in group" though. What you cognitively consider to be in group is dependent on your level of consciousness. 

[DivineSoda]

23 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

But when you stand aside a man (a slave) that have 99.99% anatomy just like you, how can you not reflect his physical pain onto yourself? It supposed to be instinctive trough your mirror neurons.

It seems to me that its more complex than this, and that even 2000 years ago, slave owners, as a minority (in analogy to nowadays - slaghter house workers) kept their thing far from other people eyes, so most of the population didnt see it, but if they saw it, at least a decent part of the population wouldn't support it. 

Like today - most people won't support slaughterhouse if they see it in their eyes. Why that it will not be the same in the slavery issue 2000 years ago?

That's what a psychopath/sociopath is. They are sadists. They are energized by fear and suffering. It's the exact opposite of the type of neural wiring you're referring to.

It is my belief that the majority of the people in power (politicians, high-level military, intelligence, multinational Corp CEOs, celebrities, etc) fall into this category.

The suffering you see when you look out upon the world is a reflection of this upper class social group. 

BUT, it's not all bad news. Nothing is out of balance in this Universe. It's all happening for a reason, I believe.. consciousness waking up to itself. 

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, AlwaysBeNice said:

Are ants? Highly doubt.

Likewise I will not care about enslaving your children.

Don't cry when I serve you a dish of your own BS.

4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

But when you stand aside a man (a slave) that have 99.99% anatomy just like you, how can you not reflect his physical pain onto yourself?

This assumes so much.

It assumes you see him as human.

It assumes you care about the pain of others.

None of this is the case without education, training, and infrastructure.

YOU ARE SELFISH. You do not care about the pain of others. Your survival hinges on you not caring.

If you could push a magic button to receive a perfect sex slave who will fulfill all of your deepest desires on command, you would push that button and you would not care about her feelings. You and your friends would then invent an ideology which justifies why you all deserve to have sex slaves.

[Hello from Russia]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

when I serve you a dish of your own BS

Imagine Actualized restaurant franchise, damn, so much potential

[Parththakkar12]

5 hours ago, Nivsch said:

But when you stand aside a man (a slave) that have 99.99% anatomy just like you, how can you not reflect his physical pain onto yourself? It supposed to be instinctive trough your mirror neurons.

There is a very heavy ideology justifying why you have the right to own a slave. Not only that, there is a very heavy ideology in the slave's mind on why they should serve their master.

It's like 'My master is my God, I should worship him. My survival depends on him and he deserves my services.' If you go and tell such a person that slavery is bad, they'll look at you like you're bitching and moaning about the weather, like 'Yeah I know it's bad, but it's okay.' A possibility of being free and not being a slave will literally not occur to them! It took the likes of Martin Luther King to even awaken them to the idea that slavery is unfair, or segregation is unfair.

In such a situation, the victim of slavery doesn't see themselves as victims of slavery. Since there's no victim, it's no cry no foul. If you are a white slave owner who understands that slavery is bad, you will find it very hard to let go of your slaves. Because you know that someone else will pick them up and their slavery won't end because of you. In the ultimate sense, the slaves themselves are also responsible for their slavery, so they will find their way to a different master. Covertly, they will rely on slavery as their survival strategy because they don't know any other way of survival. Therefore, you as a conscious slave owner, may keep slaves but choose to treat them better.

[fluffy]

@Leo Gura

Lol, imagine the advent of sex robots in the future. Forever changing the dating market and culture along with it. Truly a brave new world, women everywhere would be foaming out of their mouths.  

Edited July 9, 2020 by fluffy

[AlwaysBeNice]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Likewise I will not care about enslaving your children.

Don't cry when I serve you a dish of your own BS.

Doubting ants are capable of suffering, is likewise for you to not caring about enslaving my children.

Retard

[Leo Gura]

15 minutes ago, AlwaysBeNice said:

Doubting ants are capable of suffering, is likewise for you to not caring about enslaving my children.

Retard

If you don't care about the survival agenda of an ant, why should anyone care about your survival agenda?

Notice how utterly selfish you are.

And when it's pointed to you, you get nasty about it.

[TrustTheProcess]

18 minutes ago, AlwaysBeNice said:

Doubting ants are capable of suffering, is likewise for you to not caring about enslaving my children.

Retard

lol, how you boutta go to a monastery and spit in the head monk's face? 

nobody is coercing you to be here

[AlwaysBeNice]

49 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If you don't care about the survival agenda of an ant, why should anyone care about your survival agenda?

Notice how utterly selfish you are.

And when it's pointed to you, you get nasty about it.

I simply doubted the notion ants (or animals) can suffer, animals probably can but they can't hate others or themselves.

Then you start with 'enslaving my children', not crying when you serve me my bullshit?? What.

_

Also, humans, not caring about emotionless and thoughtless insects.. selfish selfish.. everyone is selfish.

The question is whether or not it's cruel or insensitive, and no, I wouldn't call killing insects to be cruel for some rather practical reason, they are certainly not equal to humans in any emotional sense, and thoughtless. 

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, AlwaysBeNice said:

I wouldn't call killing insects to be cruel for some rather practical reason

So now you understand how a slaverowner feels justified in keeping slaves.

Slavery is purely practical. No one engages in slavery to be deliberately cruel. Free labor is simply a highly practical thing.

[AlwaysBeNice]

Actually I thought about that for some time the other day, it's also not as simple as 'hey let's enslave another human', though nowhere did I imply abuse or slavery or killing is okay by saying animals may not be able to suffer, at least not in the typical human sense.

But slavery didn't just happen one fine daym 

Westerners arrived in Africa, after a long hard journey, and met a tribal people.

Now you what do you, in Africa, scarcity all around, fear all around, can't communicate with eachother properly.

That it ended in a war is not so strange. The enslavement thereafter then isn't such a huge leap then, war ain't pretty or easy, it certainly wasn't a trivial or casual choice.

Once born into a family of slaveholders, you are used to it, and and even if you wanted to set the slave free, where would he go?

There was still scarcity as well, and admitting a wrong is usually also hard for people.

It's not like people had no empathy, and just enslaved others, no, people aren't inherently bad, not at all. 

[Leo Gura]

@AlwaysBeNice Slavery has nothing to do with Africa. Slavery was practiced locally by most peoples all over the world. And of course Africans enslaved each other too.

Go read Wikipedia article on the history of slavery.

[Rilles]

5 hours ago, AlwaysBeNice said:

The question is whether or not it's cruel or insensitive, and no, I wouldn't call killing insects to be cruel for some rather practical reason, they are certainly not equal to humans in any emotional sense, and thoughtless. 

A slaveowner would say the same thing about Africans. Ants have been around for 92 million years. Think about that. 

Edited July 10, 2020 by Rilles

[AlwaysBeNice]

Yes I know that, it was a thought response to some judgments towards the white.

_

Well that would just be dishonest of them @Rilles, if you want to think insects should be treated equally as humans, well it's a fact they simply do not experience the potential emotional and mental drama, or emotional bonding we can have with eachother.

Technically everything is also just as old as everything else.

And also, practical proportions matter.

Aside from being thought and emotionless, if I were living next to giants thousands of times larger then me.. well given im human, i probably would care to communicate, but it's getting pretty silly at this point, let's just say I think these proportions are here for a reason.

Treat insects nicely, why not, they may notice it, idk, comparing it to humans 1 to 1, eh, that's just stupid and dishonest as well.

And in the end birth and death aren't so important for anything that doesn't have the capability for spiritual betterment and emotional bonding etc. The insects don't even have the capacity to actually think about it.

[Rilles]

14 minutes ago, AlwaysBeNice said:

Yes I know that, it was a thought response to some judgments towards the white.

_

Well that would just be dishonest of them @Rilles, if you want to think insects should be treated equally as humans, well it's a fact they simply do not experience the potential emotional and mental drama, or emotional bonding we can have with eachother.

Is that what we base not killing eachother off? Capacity of emotion? Interesting thought, never thought about that before. Is it okay to kill someone who has no feeling? Hope this doenst translate as snarky btw, its genuinely a morbid but interesting thought.

Btw, you dont know that ants think, you are not an ant, youre assuming that, they could be using their antenna for thought for all we know, just because humans have brains doesnt make brains special, the entire body has nerves after all. 

Technically everything is also just as old as everything else.

Yeah but were not talking about rocks here, were talking about an intelligent insect who has had to adapt to the entire planet for 92 million years. 

And also, practical proportions matter.

Aside from being thought and emotionless, if I were living next to giants thousands of times larger then me.. well given im human, i probably would care to communicate, but it's getting pretty silly at this point, let's just say I think these proportions are here for a reason.

What makes you think a giant would understand you?

Treat insects nicely, why not, they may notice it, idk, comparing it to humans 1 to 1, eh, that's just stupid and dishonest as well.

Do whatever you want, I just like to deconstruct my own assumptions. Making assumptions and not deconstructing them has lead to many atrocities in history. 

And in the end birth and death aren't so important for anything that doesn't have the capability for spiritual betterment and emotional bonding etc. The insects don't even have the capacity to actually think about it.