Noam Chomsky, J.K. Rowling, Margaret Atwood + others sign Anti-Cancel Culture letter

[Boethius]

"The actual problem is that we have a new bunch of “speech regulators” (not in the legal sense, not usually at least) who are especially humorless and obnoxious and I would say neurotic — in the personality psychology sense of that word.  I say let’s complain about the real problem, namely the moral fiber, emotional temperaments, and factual worldviews of the individuals who have arrogated the new speech censorship functions to themselves."

-- Tyler Cowen

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Boethius said:

"The actual problem is that we have a new bunch of “speech regulators” (not in the legal sense, not usually at least) who are especially humorless and obnoxious and I would say neurotic — in the personality psychology sense of that word.  I say let’s complain about the real problem, namely the moral fiber, emotional temperaments, and factual worldviews of the individuals who have arrogated the new speech censorship functions to themselves."

-- Tyler Cowen

But that's exactly what happens when you democratize and flatten hierarchies, as Green is into doing. You will get a mob rule effect. The mob will require people to conform to its values.

[commie]

So the actual problem is both the psychology and values of "the mob", a much more serious and older problem than "cancel culture".

[AtheisticNonduality]

Chomsky is pure Yellow.

[AtheisticNonduality]

Vaush was funny when he said Atheism Is Unstoppable was stopped.  He's been stopped for like the sixth time now.

[Boethius]

@Leo Gura There are natural hierarchies on topics of race, gender, sexuality, etc: hierarchies of expertise as regards how to systematically solve problems connected to these issues. I mean, the average Black person does have the lived experience of what it's like being Black in America, but they probably don't have any especially deep insight into how to refinance, restructure, and reform the public education system. I feel like free speech can be defended if not on universal grounds (which progressives today have little sympathy for) then at least on pragmatic ones.

[commie]

It would help if you were to produce a coherent alternative definition of free speech. Because I feel like you're distracting from actual free speech issues when you're bringing up free speech in a context in which no one's free speech is being infringed.

[Boethius]

10 minutes ago, commie said:

It would help if you were to produce a coherent alternative definition of free speech. Because I feel like you're distracting from actual free speech issues when you're bringing up free speech in a context in which no one's free speech is being infringed.

I assume you're responding to my comment about natural hierarchies? I mentioned it because I am actually not inherently opposed to shifting speech norms where people recognize that their group identity limits & informs their "view" of the world. For example, I don't really think the average white person's views on the problems of the Black community should be given much weight -- just look at recent forum posts here, about Black people being inferior to white people, to see where unrestricted free speech leads. So I feel roughly in agreement with the Left's techniques of centering marginalized voices, uplifting the voices of POC, owning one's privilege, being mindful of positionality, etc.

And yet... if we're all expected to just parrot the "ideological" views on these issues then I don't see that the problems are truly going to solved. To your previous point, as well, this is probably not going to lead to the creation of great art.

[commie]

6 minutes ago, Boethius said:

I assume you're responding to my comment about natural hierarchies?

I don't even know what that is. No, I was responding to: "I feel like free speech can be defended if not on universal grounds (which progressives today have little sympathy for) then at least on pragmatic ones."

 

8 minutes ago, Boethius said:

just look at recent forum posts here, about Black people being inferior to white people, to see where unrestricted free speech leads.

Or indeed to the antisemitic propaganda (such a fascinating take)! But I've always argued (in a context where it actually is a free speech issue) that hatred should be out in the open where it's harder to ignore.

 

12 minutes ago, Boethius said:

So I feel roughly in agreement with the Left's techniques of centering marginalized voices, uplifting the voices of POC, owning one's privilege, being mindful of positionality, etc.

I certainly don't feel in agreement with this cringe-worthy stuff. It's not even supposed to solve the problems it exploits.

[Lyubov]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's a letter condemning the excesses of stage Green mob mentality.

The letter is right, of course. Green is starting to get a bit excessive in certain areas.

Can't say I'm with you this one boss. Only stuff I've seen being canceled is people being filmed going on racist rants in public. When it gets out of hand it gets out of hand but I haven't seen that happen except a few fringe examples the alt right uses. For the most part it's been pretty understandable. JK rowling has been under fire lately cause she has been quite transphobic on twitter. I wonder if that played a part in her decision. 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Lyubov

[Raze]

10 hours ago, Lyubov said:

Can't say I'm with you this one boss. Only stuff I've seen being canceled is people being filmed going on racist rants in public. When it gets out of hand it gets out of hand but I haven't seen that happen except a few fringe examples the alt right uses. For the most part it's been pretty understandable. JK rowling has been under fire lately cause she has been quite transphobic on twitter. I wonder if that played a part in her decision. 

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/502975-california-man-fired-over-alleged-white-power-sign-says-he-was

Random guy loses his job because someone snaps a picture of him doing an ok symbol that because Trump does it they believe is a white power symbol. He says he was just cracking his knuckles, and he's mexican. How is it not going too far?

Edited July 9, 2020 by Raze

[Opo]

44 minutes ago, Raze said:

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/502975-california-man-fired-over-alleged-white-power-sign-says-he-was

Random guy loses his job because someone snaps a picture of him doing an ok symbol that because Trump does it they believe is a white power symbol. He says he was just cracking his knuckles, and he's mexican. How is it not going too far?

Here is the picture. 

[Boethius]

We can probably re-litigate the various cases of cancellation all day long, since most of them will be "edge" cases. But haven't we seen this sort of phenomenon before? I'm thinking

(a) sexual harassment/assault complaints against powerful men

(b) police brutality against Black people

Not to draw too much of a moral equivalence here, but in both (a) and (b) there were complaints ongoing for a long time that there was a problem & the "mainstream" of American society would analyze each case in isolation and say "I don't see the problem". Is it that much of a stretch that

(c) cancellation of people who have rubbed socially-minded people the wrong way

is another such societal problem? Maybe it really just requires each one of us to find an example of the phenomenon that we find to be convincing in order for us to be convinced.... Well, here is a list of examples if people want to see whether they do or do not find this to be a pattern:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/stop-firing-innocent/613615/

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/08/us/2019-canceled-stories-trnd/index.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/28/style/is-it-canceled.html

For myself, the general rule "where there's smoke there's fire" leads me to accept that (a), (b), and (c) are not just isolated, arguable incidents but are all parts of larger patterns of problems we are facing as a society.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Boethius

[Raze]

The problem with cancel culture is it is mob rule and anarchy. As a result we have situations like this:

https://quillette.com/2020/02/23/how-anonymous-unproven-accusations-turned-mike-tunisons-career-into-metoo-road-kill/

He lost his job, can't get a new one, all based on 0 evidence from an accusation by an anonymous person. He has no mechanism to prove his innocence or get recourse from what happened. Cancel culture basically created a weapon for anyone to abuse to take down people they don't like.

[Lyubov]

3 hours ago, Raze said:

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/502975-california-man-fired-over-alleged-white-power-sign-says-he-was

Random guy loses his job because someone snaps a picture of him doing an ok symbol that because Trump does it they believe is a white power symbol. He says he was just cracking his knuckles, and he's mexican. How is it not going too far?

 the vast majority of cancel culture is pretty blatant though. I'm sure there are some outliers that need to be addressed however. 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Lyubov