Libertarian Examples Mega-Thread

[Leo Gura]

@Jacobsrw People who claim math is racist are not doing so on libertarian grounds. Libertarians usually don't give a damn about racism, since most of them lean right-wing. And a libertarian would tend to argue that math and logic are absolute truths since libertarians do not understand relativity.

[Jacobsrw]

58 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Jacobsrw People who claim math is racist are not doing so on libertarian grounds. Libertarians usually don't give a damn about racism, since most of them lean right-wing.

I wouldn’t necessarily say that. Many individualists operate under herd mentality. Detesting anyone that argues against the rights of a person’s autonomy and banding together to do so. Eg. Radical feminists whom argue for the individual sovereignty of women to be unbounded by governmental stratification of gender and yet still assume a leftists position which resists capitalism. Just because one is a leftists does not denounce their adherence to libertarian beliefs.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Jacobsrw

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Jacobsrw said:

Isolated principles of liberalism have been around for Millenia, since Confucius in fact. However, libertarianism itself evolved paradigmatically only if recent centuries.

Now you're suddenly using liberalism and libertarianism interchangeably. Anyways, tell me how post-modernism supposedly gave rise to the libertarianism we see today. I have no idea how those two are linked.

[abrakamowse]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It is impossible for two villages to simply live near each other without interaction. And much of that interaction will not be voluntary or lovely. Libertarians fundamentally do not understand this.

Got it. I was always attracted to the idea of a free society, kind of anarchist societies. But I never found a way to maintain order without some kind of control of that "freedom". What you are saying makes more sense.

Right now I am more thinking on applying some of those principles inside of a capitalist society, like you said, creating controls from the government. I think is the only way... there's a movement that is trying to democratize workplaces. They create or incentive people to create workers cooperatives.

Anyway, I don't see that ideas taking strenght in the actual society, they can work... but they are almost isolated, they don't become "popular ideas".

This is a video about that, I don't know if you saw it before. It wouldn't be a completely free libertarian (left) society, but it would bring some of that ideas to the actual society (capitalist or social democracy... )

 

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by abrakamowse

[Leo Gura]

I'm extremely skeptical of any flat-hierarchy organizations. If they worked, they would have been done from day one. The problem is they are inefficient and directionless. Design by committee doesn't work so well. Majority of people are lazy, ignorant, stupid, and without vision or ambition.

[Jacobsrw]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

Now you're suddenly using liberalism and libertarianism interchangeably. Anyways, tell me how post-modernism supposedly gave rise to the libertarianism we see today. I have no idea how those two are linked.

From my understanding, liberalism and libertarianism are quite similar. Liberalism is classical and libertarianism is contemporary. They both undermine the state and prioritise the individual.

Well I’d say they are linked because the libertarianism we see today is systematically spread throughout fragmented ideological positions. Contemporary libertarianism lends its absurd belief in individualism from the skepticism which cane of post-modernism.

Post-modernism maintains no absolute system from which to be grounded, it upholds subjectivity. This allows for ideological positions to be arbitrarily grounded in self-fulfilling logic. Since post-modernism questions everything many subjective ideological positions used this to denounce the state, libertarianism being one of them. 

Libertarianism of today is used by the west to aggrandise and bolster any individualistic ideal. Which is why we see so many random schools of thought sprouting.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Jacobsrw

[abrakamowse]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I'm extremely skeptical of any flat-hierarchy organizations. If they worked, they would have been done from day one. The problem is they are inefficient and directionless. Design by committee doesn't work so well. Majority of people are lazy, ignorant, stupid, and without vision or ambition.

This ones are supposed to have some kind of hierarchy. There's a group of people that they are like the ones who work on the management side of the project. They earn more money that common workers, but the difference is not so big as we see now in actual capitalism.

Everybody has the right to vote in an important decision, but... there's a management that decides too and that is responsible for the well being of the company and the workers.

They say that because workers have part on the company, they are really like owners of the company too, so they are more interested in the company to work well, so they work harder. They have workshops where they teach workers how to combat the abuses that can be made on a company like that, there's more regulations than before.

But really, I am not very well informed. I just read some articles about that. I will find out more. Thanks Leo for your videos about this topic. They are really helpful to have a more open minded vision about this complicated topic.

[Joel3102]

@Leo Gura Does this mean you disagree with the idea of worker owned co-ops which are a popular idea amongst socialists/soc-dems these days?

[remember]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I'm extremely skeptical of any flat-hierarchy organizations. If they worked, they would have been done from day one. The problem is they are inefficient and directionless. Design by committee doesn't work so well. Majority of people are lazy, ignorant, stupid, and without vision or ambition.

you would need to explain what a flat hierarchy is in your opinion. i‘m actually very sceptical about people who speak against flat hierarchies, it sounds much to much like a blue self bias, which does not believe in progressive organizations. in some sense yes of course a flat one storey hierarchy system would only work for small groups. but a flattened two or three storey hierarchy system with not one person on the top but a team where every person has different fields of expertise or sections of responsibility can work. it might not work in politics, because in politics you need a representative, someone who takes the responsibility - but even that is devided into two people in some countries, i‘m also seeing a problem in regressing into too much of blue if you rant so much about libertarianism - even in libertarianism there are different kinds of libertarians, there are also progressive creative ideas which are actually not libertarian but just showing alternatives, as they are already developed in small businesses or organizations. after your new video about property rights it seems like you would put these people also into the libertarian category, because they work fine in the society we are already living in and usually in the middle class sector as they are not that aggressively going after money. they work fine even though their hierarchical structure is flattened. so careful about getting to rigid and inflexible. people usually construct  powerhirarchies because they  are fearful and don’t want to try new concepts of living, it’s backwards. flat hierarchy does not mean no hierarchy or no system or loosened laws.

[Parththakkar12]

@remember Flat hierarchy means there's no leader. No leader, no action.

[abrakamowse]

5 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

@remember Flat hierarchy means there's no leader. No leader, no action.

 

Not so sure about that...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobmorgan/2015/07/13/the-5-types-of-organizational-structures-part-3-flat-organizations/#71278ec86caa

Quote

The most famous example of this comes from Valve, the gaming company responsible for classics such as Half-Life, Counter-Strike, Portal, and many others. At Valve there are no job titles and nobody tells you what to work on. Instead all the employees at Valve can see what projects are being worked on and can join whichever project they want. If an employee wants to start their own project then they are responsible for securing funding and building their team. For some this sounds like a dream for others, their worst nightmare.

 

[Parththakkar12]

@abrakamowse I would never want to have a flat hierarchy in my business. It may work for some people, although I'm very skeptical about long-term reliability.

I would bet against it working after the initial excitement wanes.

[AtheisticNonduality]

Vaush is introducing people to flat hierarchies.  I like it.

[DrewNows]

48 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

@remember Flat hierarchy means there's no leader. No leader, no action.

An awakened society moves with nature, let nature be the leader  

[abrakamowse]

15 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

An awakened society moves with nature, let nature be the leader  

Follow the leader!

[DrewNows]

6 minutes ago, abrakamowse said:

Follow the leader!

The children will lead  

[TrustTheProcess]

1 hour ago, abrakamowse said:

 

Not so sure about that...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobmorgan/2015/07/13/the-5-types-of-organizational-structures-part-3-flat-organizations/#71278ec86caa

 

It works for some smaller, homogeneous organizations. Logistically, it would be hard to accomplish something like this on a massive scale or within a highly diverse organization (in terms of operations)-- at least given our current technology. Roles and bureaucracy can be very useful and efficient in accomplishing a company's vision. Of course, the optimal organization would integrate healthy green into its vision to ensure that workers are treated humanely and have somewhat of a say in the direction of the company, how resources are allocated, wages etc. 

Edited July 9, 2020 by louhad

[abrakamowse]

@DrewNows

[remember]

2 hours ago, Parththakkar12 said:

@remember Flat hierarchy means there's no leader. No leader, no action.

mhh i‘m actually not sure about that, that’s why i‘m sceptical. between chaos and dictatorship are several different concepts, of closed and open systems. its even possible to flatten a hierarchy through social interaction, so even if a person gets payed more can be that the workflow is extremely openminded and actually flattened because if payment equals competency it’s a natural hierarchy, competency can also mean a person is able to let other people decide because they know the details better and also are more competent, in my perspective that’s also a flattened hierarchy.

[tenta]

On 7/7/2020 at 4:06 PM, Husseinisdoingfine said:

This whole YouTube channel is Libertarianism

 

As if that would justify overpricing food, obviously it wouldn't.

Edited July 9, 2020 by tenta