Will enlightenment eradicate addiction? (Ibogaine)

[beastcookie]

Hi there, 

Lot's of thoughts after reading 1000 Ramaji, David Hawkins etc. Recent thought is if enlightenment really eradicates addiction, if no one can be addicted to anything at LOC 1000. I've read some trip reports on Ibogaine and people claim to drop EVERY little addiction almost instantly down to caffeine, sugar and nicotine (even if they just wanted to cure their heroine addiction). But both David Hawkins and Eckhart Tolle were/are heavily addicted to caffeine. Hawkins had like 20 cups of espresso/day and Tolle goes to Starbucks every day. 

Also know that one very influencial spiritual teacher died of alcoholism (can't remember the name now but I got pretty chocked as I read it). 

What do you guys think? 

  

[Osaid]

To answer the title, I don't think so. Even with enlightenment I don't think you are immune to addictions and the ego still has its place. It's just that you more accurately perceive the ego's existence and place in your reality now. I am not sure how the whole LOC system works, but being addicted to something probably lowers your consciousness to some degree.

You're basically asking is it possible to regress into egoic habits even after enlightenment, and I would say yes.

[WelcometoReality]

24 minutes ago, beastcookie said:

Also know that one very influencial spiritual teacher died of alcoholism (can't remember the name now but I got pretty chocked as I read it). 

Alan watts drank alcohol and supposedly had alcoholism.

Nisargadatta Maharj smoked alot and died of lung cancer.

 

[LfcCharlie4]

Don't set up expectations around awakening & enlightenment, especially around awakened beings. 

If you have a serious addiction, face it head on and don't expect awakening to fix everything for you, maybe Tolle & Hawkins don't want to give up their Caffeine, Ramaji is also overweight, awakened beings aren't perfect!

[beastcookie]

4 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

Don't set up expectations around awakening & enlightenment, especially around awakened beings. 

If you have a serious addiction, face it head on and don't expect awakening to fix everything for you, maybe Tolle & Hawkins don't want to give up their Caffeine, Ramaji is also overweight, awakened beings aren't perfect!

Hm... well as I progress on my own journey it's really hard to do anything bad to myself. Excessive eating would not be possible for example, I don't perceive caffeine as something bad but would not be able to drink 5+ cups per day. Basically obsessive, excessive, addictive behaviour is not compatible with awakening, at least not for me. Not because I judge it, not at all, but because the drive/compulsion is weakened.  

[Visionary]

8 minutes ago, beastcookie said:

Hm... well as I progress on my own journey it's really hard to do anything bad to myself. Excessive eating would not be possible for example, I don't perceive caffeine as something bad but would not be able to drink 5+ cups per day. Basically obsessive, excessive, addictive behaviour is not compatible with awakening, at least not for me. Not because I judge it, not at all, but because the drive/compulsion is weakened.  

It is weakened, but it goes through cycles. Especially when in healing phase it can be quiet difficult.

[StarStruck]

Addiction is automatic behavior so if you reach a certain awareness you can see your automatic behavior unfolding. Stopping it is another thing. I got disappointed by enlightenment too. You basically have to accept your addiction because fighting it makes the addiction stronger (don't fight ghosts that don't exist mentality). It is counter intuitive. 

[Raptorsin7]

@LfcCharlie4 Would you say it's easier to deal with addictions and stuff like that post awakening?

I'm assuming for many awakened beings with obvious health issues(being overweight, alcoholism etc) that the main issue is that they don't see an issue and so they have no will or desire to change.  

[beastcookie]

6 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Addiction is automatic behavior so if you reach a certain awareness you can see your automatic behavior unfolding. Stopping it is another thing. I got disappointed by enlightenment too. You basically have to accept your addiction because fighting it makes the addiction stronger (don't fight ghosts that don't exist mentality). It is counter intuitive. 

But enlightenment for me is the joy of being, no need to do anything about a craving. Acting on a craving is immediately taking you out of the present moment. 

[LfcCharlie4]

@Raptorsin7 Yeah, defo easier to deal with anything like that when The I thought has been seen through. 
 

But, as you say it’s also the understanding and having the desire to change it. These beings may enjoy their excessive eating or caffeine consumption, and may not wish to change, personally I would say if you have any serious addiction / issues like being obese say, these should be worked on with additional things aside from typical awakening work. 
 

There’s a reason there’s so much research & work being done related to addiction, it’s not always the easiest nut to crack. 
 

7 hours ago, beastcookie said:

Hm... well as I progress on my own journey it's really hard to do anything bad to myself. Excessive eating would not be possible for example, I don't perceive caffeine as something bad but would not be able to drink 5+ cups per day. Basically obsessive, excessive, addictive behaviour is not compatible with awakening, at least not for me. Not because I judge it, not at all, but because the drive/compulsion is weakened.  

 

But, what if they don’t see it bad, maybe they don’t understand that excessive eating is as bad as it is, or the effects of caffeine, or maybe that particular drive has not been weakened, we have to remember these beings are still human, they are not magical saints who are perfect. I defo agree awakening / enlightenment helps with addictions and problematic behaviours as usually they are done to fill a void, but habits can be strong and take time to break if they have been reinforced for decades, which is why their is dedicated schools of thought to help just do that, and personally I think extra things aside from awakening needs to be done. 
 

Awakening will not solve all of your problems. 
 

For example if you’re poor, don’t expect to have an awakening and become rich, unless you do the work to uncover your limiting beliefs around money, change them, understand the law of abundance and how reality works, and then take action in your career / business / investments. 
 

same can be said for anything  

[StarStruck]

40 minutes ago, beastcookie said:

But enlightenment for me is the joy of being, no need to do anything about a craving. Acting on a craving is immediately taking you out of the present moment. 

Good point. Craving implies that you are not joyful and happy with your current state. It implies you need something external to reach happiness. You can actually find internally what you search externally. Sometimes, I'm so much in my own head that I forget this. That is why meditation is so important. 

[LfcCharlie4]

I feel like @Nahm will be able to help out here as he will of had students who had behaviour and addiction issues pre and post awakening, and if you don’t deal with the issues head on beforehand, then you will have to “clean up the shit” post, but a lot of people still aren’t ready to give up certain behaviours for a while post awakening, I’ll give you my personal example with Porn. 
 

I always thought like you did that awakening would end all behaviour issues and addictions and bad habits, but it just isn’t the case at all. These habits are hard wired into us, and require dealing with, sure awakening definitely helps, as your true nature is seen & abided as, and the “I-Thought” is eliminated. 

But, at the same time, addictions can literally change how your brain works, on a relative level, this is where integration of the awakenings is key, and can even involve more “traditional” methods such as psychotherapy, which is why I harp on about the fundamentals of life so much. For example, Shinzen Young said years after his final awakening, he had to return to see a psychiatrist to deal with some behaviour and addictive patterns he was showing, and he said it helped him deal with them, that is true integration, admitting you have a problem, and not just washing over it with Advaita But dealing with it! 
 

For me, it took finding a specialist & implementing things like habit replacement & understanding the core reasons for the behaviour, as Porn literally rewires your brain in regards to sexual stimulation, which is why it is such a danger for young males especially, for me this took more than just awakening to overcome. 
 

Finally I would also like to add there is a difference between enjoying something like say a Pizza, alcohol or even recreational drugs like Weed as part of a celebration, having fun or what not and these actions coming from a place of lack and need or to find & seek happiness. 
 

Francis Lucille talks about this & being able to distinguish where these behaviours is coming from is key. For example, if you have a need for these behaviours to truly be happy & at peace then it is coming from lack & needs to be addressed, if it is coming from wanting to celebrate life, and enjoy yourself and if you can’t get that bottle of wine with your friend and you’re okay Either wine then it is likely coming from a place of celebration  

[LfcCharlie4]

This gem summarizes the 'issue' of Desire really well, desire is our life force, but when we are dependent on the fulfilment of our desires for happiness, we become attached to the outcome, instead, when we are happy & at peace naturally, we can then see life as simply a celebration and loving game we choose to play each day, and from this place we are free to do whatever our heart 'desires'

 

[lmfao]

@beastcookie jed Mckenna has an interesting perspective on enlightenment. He says that enlightenment is not the same as mysticism or self improvement. Self improvement is perfecting the dream character, enlightenment is seeing through the dream character. He described mysticism as, paraphrasing here, "the best piece of music in the realm of duality". 

Is this true? Would that mean that someone enlightened can change their dream character? I don't know. I have no reference to answer such questions. Just by asking "who is it that is enlightened?" you'll see how incomprehensible this all is

Edited July 7, 2020 by lmfao

[Nahm]

@LfcCharlie4

One should be single pointed in awakening, imo. 

[Forestluv]

19 hours ago, beastcookie said:

But enlightenment for me is the joy of being, no need to do anything about a craving. Acting on a craving is immediately taking you out of the present moment. 

The weather is hot and as I read this thread, a craving for ice cream has arisen. I can sit here with the craving and be in the present moment or I can get some ice cream and be in the present moment. I am the present moment. There is no escape. Whatever I do is the present moment. 

[LfcCharlie4]

@Nahm As in focus on just awakening, when one is ready?

@Forestluv Perfect summary. 

[WaveInTheOcean]

I am enlightened and I'm addicted to MANY things. The most obvious one is: life. I'm addicited to limiting myself to exist as this human form, I'm currently imagining myself to play. This means I'm addicited to:

- breathing (my number one addiction, oh god, I love this one...Breathing, wauw man! You should try it)
- water and food (also high on my list, food is nice)
- sunlight (also a favorite addiction of mine)
- social contact from time to time (it's just so fun playing with other imaginary characters - I can't help myself  ).
- sex from time to time, either jerking off or doing it with a beautiful woman... cos why not, it's nice!
- sleeping (not that I like it that much, but I have to, to live)
- many more things.

Of course, ego will now say that the above things are "good addictions" and that tobacco and alcohol are "bad addictions". But this is the job of the ego -- discriminating between things -- not the job of Love. From Love's perspective there exist only Love, and tobacco and alcohol is just as much Love as breathing and water is.

The above listed things we tend to label as "good", even though they are obvious hard-core addictions. They are "good" addictions -- according to ego -- because they help the body and mind thrive and survive.

It is the ego's main task to make sure the mind and body and social persona always survive. Not only survive, but thrive! Gotta get that genes carried on together with nice genes from a stunning partner, am I right? <3  

But, ultimately, from a totally 100% objective standpoint: What is wrong with smoking tobacco everyday or drinking 1 L of vodka everyday? 

It kills you, you say? But then may I ask: what is wrong with death?? Why do you prefer life over death? What is the difference between life and death? Is there any difference?

When you keep asking why-questions like this, you come to a point where you realize that what you really are is just that: a (fucking) survival machine. All your values, beliefs, way of behaviour, thoughts, ideas, are not yours (in the sense that you voluntarily created/made them up) -- they are adoptations from other egos.

This is the first step of self-realization. Then, next, you can realize that this survival machine (body, mind, ego) luckily enough is not your true nature, but is just imagination. And that you are *that* which imagines (Love, God, Consciousness).

"But enlightenment for me is the joy of being, no need to do anything about a craving. Acting on a craving is immediately taking you out of the present moment. "

Depends. If you try to hold your breath for some time, don't you soon feel a strong, strong craving to breathe out? Does this take you out of the present moment? What is the difference between acting on this craving of breathing delicious air and then a craving for a cigarette filled with delicious nicotine? ...

Of course, I see where you are coming from. People who are not awake and addicted to e.g. alcohol/heroine, they use alcohol/heroine to run away from their own mind, because their mind is filled with so much fear, worry, regret, shame and other negative self-thoughts. By running away from their mind they actually get into the present moment by using these drugs. I haven't tried heroine, but I'm sure it's very blissful, much like a state of pure nirvana. 

Of course, the trick of life is to reach nirvana without being dependent on external conditions. Because external conditions are always that: dependent, limited, not-real, imaginary, impermanent. 

So those hardcore addicts have to run into their fear (not using) in order to go through the pain needed to awaken. Psychedelics helps, sure. A lot.

"Hm... well as I progress on my own journey it's really hard to do anything bad to myself. Excessive eating would not be possible for example, I don't perceive caffeine as something bad but would not be able to drink 5+ cups per day. Basically obsessive, excessive, addictive behaviour is not compatible with awakening, at least not for me. Not because I judge it, not at all, but because the drive/compulsion is weakened. "

Awakened beings are perfect! So are unawakened beings! Jesus was perfect. The dude on my street using heroine every day is just as perfect as jesus. Perfection is all there is. Only egos see non-perfection.

Anyway, relatively speaking, I'm glad on your behalf, that you are in a state of mind, where you have a hard time doing anything "bad" to yourself. 
Self-love, even though this in the beginning refers to love to the illusory separate self, is pretty fundamental if one wants to awaken. At least during some part of the path.

I have a hard time doing it as well. But this may change. It doesn't matter. You see, your judgment of excessive, addictive behaviour being incompatible with awakening is a thought that comes from ego. Love doesn't judge.

But in any case, I still resonate with you.

When you truly, truly are awakened beyond awakened, all dualistic concepts in mind and heart collapse to One.

This means you see your own life as the same as God's life. 

Your life = God's life

Life = Heaven

The relative = The Absolute

No difference between any dualistic oppositions. It's all One.

And therefore, of course, you want to treat your body like it's a body of God. This means, yes, exercising, eating healthy and doing other healthy things, including not being addicited to anything too harmful (heroine, alcohol and so on). 

Caffeine is to be honest pretty harmless, but still, I limit myself to one cup on the morning, and nothing else. 

I don't want to be dependent on anything. God wouldn't like that/That wouldn't be God-like.

And I am God

And yet I'm addicited to breathing and food. LOL

Love <3


 

Edited July 7, 2020 by WaveInTheOcean

[Nahm]

@LfcCharlie4

Asap. 

[An young being]

1 hour ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

I am enlightened and I'm addicted to MANY things. The most obvious one is: life. I'm addicited to limiting myself to exist as this human form, I'm currently imagining myself to play. This means I'm addicited to:

- breathing (my number one addiction, oh god, I love this one...Breathing, wauw man! You should try it)
- water and food (also high on my list, food is nice)
- sunlight (also a favorite addiction of mine)
- social contact from time to time (it's just so fun playing with other imaginary characters - I can't help myself  ).
- sex from time to time, either jerking off or doing it with a beautiful woman... cos why not, it's nice!
- sleeping (not that I like it that much, but I have to, to live)
- many more things.

Of course, ego will now say that the above things are "good addictions" and that tobacco and alcohol are "bad addictions". But this is the job of the ego -- discriminating between things -- not the job of Love. From Love's perspective there exist only Love, and tobacco and alcohol is just as much Love as breathing and water is.

The above listed things we tend to label as "good", even though they are obvious hard-core addictions. They are "good" addictions -- according to ego -- because they help the body and mind thrive and survive.

It is the ego's main task to make sure the mind and body and social persona always survive. Not only survive, but thrive! Gotta get that genes carried on together with nice genes from a stunning partner, am I right? <3  

But, ultimately, from a totally 100% objective standpoint: What is wrong with smoking tobacco everyday or drinking 1 L of vodka everyday? 

It kills you, you say? But then may I ask: what is wrong with death?? Why do you prefer life over death? What is the difference between life and death? Is there any difference?

When you keep asking why-questions like this, you come to a point where you realize that what you really are is just that: a (fucking) survival machine. All your values, beliefs, way of behaviour, thoughts, ideas, are not yours (in the sense that you voluntarily created/made them up) -- they are adoptations from other egos.

This is the first step of self-realization. Then, next, you can realize that this survival machine (body, mind, ego) luckily enough is not your true nature, but is just imagination. And that you are *that* which imagines (Love, God, Consciousness).

"But enlightenment for me is the joy of being, no need to do anything about a craving. Acting on a craving is immediately taking you out of the present moment. "

Depends. If you try to hold your breath for some time, don't you soon feel a strong, strong craving to breathe out? Does this take you out of the present moment? What is the difference between acting on this craving of breathing delicious air and then a craving for a cigarette filled with delicious nicotine? ...

Of course, I see where you are coming from. People who are not awake and addicted to e.g. alcohol/heroine, they use alcohol/heroine to run away from their own mind, because their mind is filled with so much fear, worry, regret, shame and other negative self-thoughts. By running away from their mind they actually get into the present moment by using these drugs. I haven't tried heroine, but I'm sure it's very blissful, much like a state of pure nirvana. 

Of course, the trick of life is to reach nirvana without being dependent on external conditions. Because external conditions are always that: dependent, limited, not-real, imaginary, impermanent. 

So those hardcore addicts have to run into their fear (not using) in order to go through the pain needed to awaken. Psychedelics helps, sure. A lot.

"Hm... well as I progress on my own journey it's really hard to do anything bad to myself. Excessive eating would not be possible for example, I don't perceive caffeine as something bad but would not be able to drink 5+ cups per day. Basically obsessive, excessive, addictive behaviour is not compatible with awakening, at least not for me. Not because I judge it, not at all, but because the drive/compulsion is weakened. "

Awakened beings are perfect! So are unawakened beings! Jesus was perfect. The dude on my street using heroine every day is just as perfect as jesus. Perfection is all there is. Only egos see non-perfection.

Anyway, relatively speaking, I'm glad on your behalf, that you are in a state of mind, where you have a hard time doing anything "bad" to yourself. 
Self-love, even though this in the beginning refers to love to the illusory separate self, is pretty fundamental if one wants to awaken. At least during some part of the path.

I have a hard time doing it as well. But this may change. It doesn't matter. You see, your judgment of excessive, addictive behaviour being incompatible with awakening is a thought that comes from ego. Love doesn't judge.

But in any case, I still resonate with you.

When you truly, truly are awakened beyond awakened, all dualistic concepts in mind and heart collapse to One.

This means you see your own life as the same as God's life. 

Your life = God's life

Life = Heaven

The relative = The Absolute

No difference between any dualistic oppositions. It's all One.

And therefore, of course, you want to treat your body like it's a body of God. This means, yes, exercising, eating healthy and doing other healthy things, including not being addicited to anything too harmful (heroine, alcohol and so on). 

Caffeine is to be honest pretty harmless, but still, I limit myself to one cup on the morning, and nothing else. 

I don't want to be dependent on anything. God wouldn't like that/That wouldn't be God-like.

And I am God

And yet I'm addicited to breathing and food. LOL

Love <3


 

Your addiction is necessary because it helps you to maintain your body in a good condition. Anything not necessary for survival, it can be neglected, right? ( If it is a hindrance to joy, of course)