Still Very Confused On This Morality Thing

[ProblemSolving]

Hey Orange, do yourself the favour and forget such words like devil, demon, angel, psychopath and so on. Just focus on yourself. See yourself in your room and that situation that you are in. Writting a thesis or something. Probably a tough thing to do. You are in front of a big task and you might eventually get sweaty balls. Totally questioning everything. That is okay. Just do whatever needs to be done. But don't go crazy with this word "morality". Define your own morality. Don't learn about it by asking others. Because you will only get to know a certain concept of morality, that is not based on your own values. It is like you are a very weak person right now, searching for a purpose of life. People will abuse it by making you their slave by making you believe in a life purpose they've told you. Hope you understand the analogy. 

The biggest wisdom can be extracted from yourself. Nothing external is necessary.

[Orange]

@ProblemSolving yes you're on point about this I suppose. 

On 27/07/2016 at 3:50 PM, ProblemSolving said:

It is like you are a very weak person right now, searching for a purpose of life. 

But why should I follow my morality? If I was born with a different brain I would have different morals . What if I was born with ted bundy's brain and you said the same thing to me, should I still follow my morals ? Ie. Kill, torture

 

[ProblemSolving]

First of all I need to mention that there is a weird negative vibe when you write something. This time you mentioned the name ted bundy, who seems to be a serial killer (source: wikipedia). Your morality is your game. If you had another brain you probably would have another morality / another game. Why do you care about other morals? Live your own life. Do what you think is "right". There is no need to answer "what if" questions. What if there never was a big bang? What if existence never existed? What if science is totally wrong about the big bang theory?

I am not going to tell you too much how you are supposed to behave. I am only telling you how I see this ted bundy: A dude who killed and tortured people. So that was his morality / his values of life. Good for him. The problem is that often it seems like when you do something to somebody, you have to expect the same thing happening to you. That is not a rule that is written somewhere, this is just instinct. When someone kicks me, I have the desire to defend myself. So I truly think that when someones morality also includes torturing and killing people then this person should see some consequences (ted bundy got a death sentence, source: wikipedia). Becausen often I see that something like a domino effect has to exist. When I do something good to people, like talking, laughing, having a relaxed conversation, helping them, this other person will have the tendency to spread this energy. Even the feeling that you give to yourself doing something good. Everything that you do is a mirror of yourself. And this has nothing to do with the expectations of society, but the commitment one has to a certain aspect of life.  

[Orange]

 

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 Why do you care about other morals? 

Because I want to understand why some people follow morals like ted bundy's.  I wonder if I am in a different environment surrounded by someone like him would I develop the same morals as him and think they are right or would I stand straight next to mine (ie. Respect) no matter what.

I doubt myself and my morals you see. I don't know what is right or wrong anymore. I wish I could believe with 100% that respect and empathy is the right way to go but after Leo's video on morality I don't know ..so I don't have a clear sign on my road. I am turning around looking at many different signs like they are all potentially correct. 

Edited July 28, 2016 by Orange

[ProblemSolving]

Dunno what I am supposed to add here. When you ask us what kind of morals you are supposed to have, you basically behave like a very young child not knowing anything about the world, which actually isn't a bad thing. But being in your age (you are writing a thesis now) you have to have some sort of values. Look at your life. Be aware of what you are doing. What you are doing is what you are. Just think a lot about your own life and don't get obsessed with other people like ted bundy. You are upsetting me somehow. I feel like I am talking with a potential copycat murderer.  There are people who are mentally ill, there are people who are/were very unlucky in their life, there are people who just find another reason to live a very dark life based on torturing and killing and whatsoever. But why should I look at such people? I don't define myself as a person that likes torturing and killing, because I have compassion. I have emotions. I believe that being is a great alternative to not being. Torture and killing for me is just some sort of sadistic stuff that is only covering stuff like fear.

1 hour ago, Orange said:

Because I want to understand why some people follow morals like ted bundy's

Defining morals as something very unique this sentence is total bullcrap. Every human being has its very own morals.

1 hour ago, Orange said:

 I wonder if I am in a different environment surrounded by someone like him would I develop the same morals as him and think they are right or would I stand straight next to mine (ie. Respect) no matter what.

It always depends on you and the other person. Will you let the other person influence you to become more and more like he is? Do you have some fundamental values that can't be changed that easily? Even if this ted bundy lives in your environment. Why should he influence you? Only because he is present? Do you think that you are soooo manipulative? I am not saying that the perfect human being should not be manipulative at all, but representing your own values or whatsoever is a strong trait, I guess.

1 hour ago, Orange said:

I am turning around looking at many different signs like they are all potentially correct. 

Well, you don't have to define what is right and what is wrong. This is just a way for human beings to simplify life as much as possible (source: religion or whatsoever). There are questions that can't be answered, in my humble opinion. But if you REALLY want to find an answer, you will. Believe me. Do whatever the fuck you want. Answer the question for yourself or just don't answer it. 

Having a great quote from my favorite dude Jiddu Krishnamurti:

“You know, if we understand one question rightly, all questions are answered. But we don't know how to ask the right question. To ask the right question demands a great deal of intelligence and sensitivity. Here is a question, a fundamental question: is life a torture? It is, as it is; and man has lived in this torture centuries upon centuries, from ancient history to the present day, in agony, in despair, in sorrow; and he doesn't find a way out of it. Therefore he invents gods, churches, all the rituals, and all that nonsense, or he escapes in different ways. What we are trying to do, during all these discussions and talks here, is to see if we cannot radically bring about a transformation of the mind, not accept things as they are, nor revolt against them. Revolt doesn't answer a thing. You must understand it, go into it, examine it, give your heart and your mind, with everything that you have, to find out a way of living differently. That depends on you, and not on someone else, because in this there is no teacher, no pupil; there is no leader; there is no guru; there is no Master, no Saviour. You yourself are the teacher and the pupil; you are the Master; you are the guru; you are the leader; you are everything. And to understand is to transform what is." 

[abrakamowse]

2 hours ago, Orange said:

I doubt myself and my morals you see. I don't know what is right or wrong anymore. I wish I could believe with 100% that respect and empathy is the right way to go but after Leo's video on morality I don't know ...

Think about it... what Buddhism says that the root of the problem is, the root of the problem is that we see ourselves as separated beings. You "think" you are a separated being so you act in that way. If you are not the others, of course you will doubt if having empathy is the right way to go.

Think about all the common things on the different religions or philosophies. All of them talk about "transcending the self". When you transcend the self you will see that you and your neighbor are the same.

Do you think you won't have empathy for someone who is also you? When you are doing something "wrong" to other, you do it to yourself.

I am not "conscious" or awakened, but I can see a commonality on religious, spiritual stuff and I think it make sense. That's the only way you can "love your neighbor as yourself", otherwise is pretty difficult. We are what we think we are. That's something Buddha said too. And I don't say it like because they are awakened beings we have to follow them blindly, there's something behind that idea of separated self that transcends all and love all without conditions, and that can shine through you too. It was always you but you (and me) let it be obscured by thoughts about being separated selves isolated from the universe and from other human beings.

We are all one.

[abrakamowse]

@MalAbout Personality disorder I found that Suzanne Segal had a similar experience that was diagnosed as depersonalization disorder.

I think that the girl you've mentioned really had a strong "no self experience", but that doesn't happen because she read something or because someone told her about that. There's thousands of people who watch videos on youtube and nothing happens to them.

That's clearly her consciousness getting awakened on her, but if she's not really prepared she can think that shes going crazy, I tell you that because it happened to me too. Now I see clearly what happened, and I know that even at that moment I needed the therapists, they were really confused about what happened... and let me tell you that I am still taking pills and now I feel much better than my own therapist. I know I won't need those pills never anymore, because nothing in my mind is real, nothing in my mind affects me the way it used too. So my mind can go fucking crazy and people will see me outside like a normal person, because I am focused on my "being-ness" I don't pay attention to thoughts when they go crazy, the monkey mind as we call it.

Check this link, this is what happened to Suzanne Segal, it's interesting. I don't think Leo has nothing to do with the problems of other persons, he can't create anything or make anyone believe this or that. Same thing about anything said or written on this forums. Everything is what it "is". Nothing wrong.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzanne_Segal

I'll post some fragments here because I think it can cast some light about this:

"One day in 1982, while boarding a bus in Paris, the 27-year-old Segal experienced a sudden shift in her consciousness. She described the experience in her book, Collisions With the Infinite:

"I lifted my right foot to step up into the bus and collided head-on with an invisible force that entered my awareness like a silently exploding stick of dynamite, blowing the door of my usual consciousness open and off its hinges, splitting me in two. In the gaping space that appeared, what I had previously called 'me' was forcefully pushed out of its usual location inside me into a new location that was approximately a foot behind and to the left of my head. 'I' was now behind my body looking out at the world without using the body's eyes."

Segal described this first period of her experience as "witnessing", since she was aware of herself but also critically detached from it. This was tremendously unpleasant for her, full of anxiety and fear:

The moment the eyes opened the next morning, the mind exploded in worry. Is this insanity? Psychosis? Schizophrenia? Is this what people call a nervous breakdown? Depression? What happened? And would it ever stop? ...The mind was in agony as it tried valiantly to make sense of something it could never comprehend, and the body responded to the anguish of the mind by locking itself into survival mode, adrenaline pumping, senses fine-tuned, finding and responding to the threat of annihilation in every moment."

 

Edited July 28, 2016 by abrakamowse

[Orange]

1 hour ago, ProblemSolving said:

 You are upsetting me somehow. 

Yes I could feel this in your other reply as well and I'm sorry, it was not my intention. It is not an easy subject, I just want to understand. 

Quote

 

Having a great quote from my favorite dude Jiddu Krishnamurti:

“You know, if we understand one question rightly, all questions are answered. But we don't know how to ask the right question. To ask the right question demands a great deal of intelligence and sensitivity. Here is a question, a fundamental question: is life a torture? It is, as it is; and man has lived in this torture centuries upon centuries, from ancient history to the present day, in agony, in despair, in sorrow; and he doesn't find a way out of it. Therefore he invents gods, churches, all the rituals, and all that nonsense, or he escapes in different ways. What we are trying to do, during all these discussions and talks here, is to see if we cannot radically bring about a transformation of the mind, not accept things as they are, nor revolt against them. Revolt doesn't answer a thing. You must understand it, go into it, examine it, give your heart and your mind, with everything that you have, to find out a way of living differently. That depends on you, and not on someone else, because in this there is no teacher, no pupil; there is no leader; there is no guru; there is no Master, no Saviour. You yourself are the teacher and the pupil; you are the Master; you are the guru; you are the leader; you are everything. And to understand is to transform what is." 

Thanks for this, I will think about it

[Orange]

3 hours ago, Piotr said:

 

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You might hold a belief that if you just let someone's mind of the hook it will go do some crazy shit, because you realize that the basic structure of human mind is the same for everyone.

No the basic structure is not the same for everyone.  Psychopaths have smaller amygdala (where emotions are processed). 

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But doesn't that mean that given the right circumstances Ghandi would do some crazy shit too?

Maybe. 

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Doesn't it mean that Ted Bundy is capable of being a loving human?

No. He doesn't have the right brain structure to process a feeling like love. It is like asking a chair to feel love. 

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But how's that really related to you other then projecting your self-image and comparing it to these people?

 

Because I am wondering about the advice I am given 'listen to you and your own morality'. Can I give the same advice to a killer? Is their morality as valid as mine? That's what I am wondering. .

 

[abrakamowse]

29 minutes ago, Orange said:

No. He doesn't have the right brain structure to process a feeling like love. It is like asking a chair to feel love. 

Sorry to interrupt, but the problem here is not that Bundy doesn't have the brain structure to process a feeling.

He created that brain structure because he didn't know he is not his thoughts. He was unconscious as most of us, but he didn't even have the awareness to know it. So he continue feeding those thoughts who came to his mind, like it came to all of us, but some don't pay attention to them.

The thoughts are feed on attention. And if you don't see that those thoughts are not you, you begin to think "I am this, I am a serial killer" and then you act as a serial killer.

Check this video on youtube how the way we think modifies our brain, and not the other way around.

 

 

It is a process called "brain plasticity" and shows how we "rewire" our brain with our thoughts.

[Orange]

54 minutes ago, Piotr said:

I don't know how to help you with this struggle. In the conceptual framework within you ask that question I think you know the answer. 

Not really..I am very confused. .

Quote

 

That's all I know. I am not being very helpful despite my best intentions, sorry.

It's fine, I like to see your perspective and I appreciate your help

43 minutes ago, Piotr said:

Oh just remembered a good book by Alice Miller, if you're interested in that topic,  she talks about childhoods of Adolf Hitler and likes. Very interesting perspective. It's called ' For Your Own Good '.

And thanks for this! I'll look into it after the 20 000 words of blabla I have to write. 

Edited July 28, 2016 by Orange

[Orange]

59 minutes ago, abrakamowse said:

 

Check this video on youtube how the way we think modifies our brain, and not the other way around.

 

 

It is a process called "brain plasticity" and shows how we "rewire" our brain with our thoughts.

Nice, I ll watch this, thank you Mr mouwse !

[Orange]

 @Piotr thanks ! 

[Salaam]

On 7/25/2016 at 11:36 AM, Orange said:

Hey peeps. Ive taken some time to think about morality and as a result I'm procrastinating so much on my work because I don't know what I should do with my life...I have a thesis due in in less than a week and haven't started writing much of the 20000 fucking words.  I want to give a message with this paper, a message for respect of every living being but I don't really believe in that message anymore. Because when I look at the replies on morality many replies say: "you just have to be the real you, the you without morals blablabla" 

OK so what if the real you is someone who is sadistic and wants to torture other beings for their pleasure? What if that is the life force in them? It is reality so it is as it should be. 

I guess my question is: who am I to say any message about respect if the life force within other people is non respect? And because that is their life force, it is reality and so it is right. So is my work vain? Is it worth putting the energy in it if I don't even know that it is the right thing to do because others disaprove of the message of respect and because respect is not their life force? 

I know some other posts I wrote are a bit similar to this but Im still very confused and have no direction in my life right now..

Maybe, I can share something from you with my view that you might find useful.

In my life, I've been around some of the worst people and some of the best people, people who shot and cut other people's heads off, raped children, stolen millions of dollars from education funds, pimped out girls, and then the other side of that spectrum. People who have built incredible things, healed and helped, inspired and liberated.

For me, it was never about morality, or right or wrong. I am both a monster and an angel and everything in between. I have the potential for it all.

Instead it was about satisfaction, progress, strength, connection, healing, pleasure, choice, self-expression, capability, and character.

I learned that I can't have the freedom I desire without self-responsibility to hold it up.

I can't have the pleasure that I want, without connection and mutuality, cooperation, harmony, and synergy.

And that connection wouldn't occur at the levels I wanted without Trust and Empathy. Without being able to share.

I also saw, how underneath a lot of my anger and asshole nature was pain, that I couldn't properly contain and instead would lash out onto other people. That it was my lack of resiliency that was behind my "evil". My lack of creativity to think of a better way. My lack of motivation and passion to face the challenge, the wasteland, the struggle of life and BUILD something, rather than be a taker or parasite. To care, to invest in things and risk being wrong or hurt. To risk the struggle and the pain and the hard times. God... it's amazing some of the evil people will do in the name of comfort... although we often justify such things with other reasons.

So where other people see "evil", I see victims creating other victims and lack. Lack of development and capability, being unable to balance and harmonize all the different facets within themselves and direct it into constructive ways. I see damage, scars, physical incapabilities, that make it hard for people to support what their spirit might prefer. I see people with blindness, unable to see long-term consequences, repeating the same cyclical patterns of stupidity.

I see a lot of that same shit with "good" or "morality" as well though. Just different flavors, but sometimes similar consequences.

Virtue isn't the single rule to life. It has a ceiling in isolation, but it can flourish when in balance with all the other parts of life that are equally as precious.

We all have flaws, but those flaws are an opportunity to be creative and resilient and to build enough around those flaws that they become strengths and badges of honor. They are our training ground and an opportunity for self-compassion, not our cage.

I love both my light and my dark and I mature them and balance them both, so they are light and dark "done right".

So, for me at least, it's not about morality, but what I want. And understanding that what I want has certain requirements and needs certain things to be present and healthy in order to exist. And the things I want only come with authenticity, being genuine, caring, etc.

Nature works off of relationships. Everything depends on having a connection with another thing in order to progress. I depend on my liver and kidneys, my brain and spine, but how well I can depend on them, of course depends on how well I treat and take care of them. And it goes the same with other people, the world, and my spirit.

Maybe this helps in some way for you... maybe not



 

Edited July 29, 2016 by Salaam

[Orange]

Wow, cool. I like you reply @Salaam, it does help indeed. 

26 minutes ago, Salaam said:

I love both my light and my dark and I mature them and balance them both, so they are light and dark "done right".




 

How do you do that exactly? 

[Salaam]

29 minutes ago, Orange said:

Wow, cool. I like you reply @Salaam, it does help indeed. 

How do you do that exactly? 

Well, it's a long, never-ending process that relies on developing a deeper and deeper connection and understanding with yourself. It's a process that unveils itself piece by piece as challenges and reactions occur in life and we use that opportunity to put in just a little bit more effort then the day before.

So highlights of that process would be times like when I realized that my arrogance about my intelligence was so high because I was protecting myself from the pain and fear that maybe that's all I had going for me. So I took the risk of sucking and hurting and developing other things, so I wouldn't be trapped like that, because it wasn't enough. Such efforts taught me humility, empathy, and grounded me, while also the eventual success gave me other ways of relating and connecting with people which calmed me down and made me more attractive to be around.

Another time would be when I realized that my penchant towards violent thoughts and actions towards people was really because I was scared and didn't feel safe around others. I'd been hurt too many times and wanted to be "strong" or "tough" so I became a monster to fight the other monsters who hurt me. But that kind of armor soon felt like a cage and I took the risk of being vulnerable and scared, but finding a different way to meet it, than aggression.

Each and every time, I hit a point where enough was enough and I wanted something more and something different. Each one of those points was like a fork in the road, an opportunity to adapt and change and shift the road of my life... and I did. I didn't run away from it, give up, say it was too hard, or distract myself with other things. No, I put my hands in the mud and the fire and made some mortar in that forge fire for the bricks in this home of who I am.

And as those forks in the road piled up and I changed, I saw how my aggression, became an edge held by a man, sheathed in wanting to protect and nurture what mattered to me, rather than a sword held in the hand of a scared child, just lashing out. I saw how my fear of being limited, became an opportunity for expansion and freedom, rather than a shame or inferiority I'd cover up by hiding in arrogance and superiority.

Over and over again, I turned the coin over to the side that progressed me. I gained intimacy with all my darkest desires and we worked together, bridging and pairing those desires with my character, my creativity, my standards for the life I wanted and they began to work with me. This also grounded and created intimacy with my "lightest" desires so they weren't empty justifications or dangerous indulgences in righteous anger, shaming, and lack of foresight.

I learned how to treat me and all the other parts of myself better in order to not just survive, but flourish... and through that I also learned how to treat others.


 

Edited July 29, 2016 by Salaam

[Orange]

@Salaam I love your story. I appreciate your honesty. Your story touched me, it makes a lot of sense. I too, need to learn to be vulnerable in the healthy way. I am very cautious around people. I wasn't like this as a child but growing up I build a protection too and it is hard to take it off. Also I am not sure if I should take it off. Or around whom. I guess intuition can tell? I don't know. .I wish it were different, that no one would poke your flesh when you take the armor off but that's not how life works. Still learning as well..

Thank you for this story Salaam, I will read it again when I'm down in the mud

 

[Orange]

...And make a big sandcastle or something

[Salaam]

@Orange

My pleasure man and I know where you're coming from with those questions and concerns. It sucks to hurt and not be able to trust people. To have that twist us and turn us into those very same reflections we hated... it's funny and sad how all too often the jailed, become the jailors or the molested or hurt become molesters (not just sexually, but also) and sources of pain.

There is never really a "safe" or "certain" answer, not unless it has already been built upon by foundations of courage, risk, trust, and mutual progress, but even then...

I guess eventually we see how no one is really all that great or perfect and we often hurt each other and lash out when we would wish otherwise. But, also there is a beautiful counter-balance to that sad state, which is the times when people do try and succeed and our hearts lift and we FEEL it's preciousness. It connects us, motivates and inspires us, it gives to us, making us stronger and more harmonious, if even for just a moment.

The way I see it. Life is Brutally Beautiful. That brutality and beauty share a dance and give us choice as to which side of the line we want to dance on, plus the even harder choice of mastering and maturing both, so they inter-weave, meld, and layer on top of each other, in a constructive way.

Edited July 29, 2016 by Salaam

[abrakamowse]

I found something interesting too, maybe it can be of help:

Eric Fromm regarding human nature:

“...we do not have to be satisfied with general and abstract speculations about the inherent goodness versus evilness of man. Depth psychology has offered us ample clinical material and useful hypotheses which can help us to establish the following facts: there is a special type of personality, not rare, yet not the rule, which loves destruction and death. Men who belong to this type find their most intense satisfaction when they can kill or torture; all of their energies are directed to the aim of destruction - although they often do not permit themselves to be aware of the nature of this passion. This "necrophilous," death-loving orientation can be described and understood in its dynamics, its manifestations, and its genesis. Such inquiry leads us to see that destructiveness is neither the nature of man, nor is it contrary to his nature; that it is also not one pole of a Manichaean-Freudian dualism of good and evil. I shall try to show that the pleasure in destruction is a "Secondary potentiality," a perversion which occurs necessarily when the primary, life-favoring potentialities fail to develop. There are those in whom destructiveness has become the dominant passion---they are the true killers; there are the many in whom the passion for destruction remains secondary in strength to the life-furthering tendencies, yet is strong enough to be aroused by the killers under special circumstances. Finally there are those in whom the life-loving tendencies are so strong and dominant that no circumstances will make them join the killers.”

Edited July 29, 2016 by abrakamowse