Massive GREEN Step for Reddit

[Apparition of Jack]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

And also, it's important to acknowledge the great qualities of non-western cultures. In some ways they are better and more advanced than the white west. India, for example, has crazy spiritual development which puts the west to shame.

I kind of feel like it's part of my Life Purpose to help "re-spiritualise" the West, since for someone as spiritually sensitive as I am living here has been horrific at times. While I appreciate what Western culture has done in terms of law, technology, human right's etc. I feel like we're still missing out soo much that other cultures just know intuitively because we've just kind of forgotten about it or suppressed it for the last 500 years or so.

[Akemrelax]

24 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I’ve noticed a vague sense that white western civilization is better outside of white western civilization. In my travels through central and South America, I noticed vague senses that white western civilization is better. For example, in somewhat remote areas of Peru there would be a billboard of a woman that was sorta white woman and sorta western looking. Her skin was much lighter than any Peruvian woman I saw, yet she still sorta looked Peruvian. I don’t know if she had skin whitening treatment or they brushed the photograph. And there was a glorification of western culture: the makeup, jewelry and and clothing. As if to say “This is beautiful and successful”. There was a vague sense of admiration of this, yet also a sense that our culture is better - their music, history, heritage, traditions etc. There was a lot of pride in it.  Wherever I went, I would say that I really liked their culture’s way of speaking Spanish. The majority of people would agree with  and be proud of it.

I think what you are describing is colorism: prejudice against dark skin tones within a racial group.

53 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I wouldn't say that half agrees with his exact detailed justifications of white superiority. I'd say half leans right-wing. And I think plenty of right-wingers have a vague sense that white western civilization is better than the rest because it has historically been so dominant and successful -- regardless of how you explain it. I think at least half the country is ethnocentric, feeling like their race and culture is the best.

Ethnocentrism is a more nuanced thing than racism. Stage Green SJW types would benefit from making that distinction. It's easy to call people racist when really they are stuck in ethnocentrism. They are unable to see beyond their bias towards their culture and ethnicity. Such people are not nazis, facists, or explicit racists.

@Leo Gura Racism is about discrimination based on physical characteristics (skin color, eye color, features, etc.). Ethnocentrism is about discrimination based on nationality and culture (American, German, "Western", Chinese, Hindu, etc.). 

They usually coincide but technically I would call someone who discriminates based on physical features a racist. For example, if a Chinese person discriminates against a black person who grew up in China (aka is culturally Chinese), then I would call that racism not ethnocentrism. Of course, there are degrees to ethnocentrism and racism.

Regardless, I don't think it's a good idea to confront people by calling them these names, it usually doesn't work. I do agree that world wide more than half the population is racist and ethnocentric like you described. In the USA it might be more about ethnocentrism, for example, "don't marry a black person because of cultural differences" and not "don't marry a black person because they are genetically inferior". This ethnocentrism might bring with it implicit biases (implicit racism) as well. But yea, not a good idea to confront them head on.

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Serotoninluv I think you can say that white western civilization is better. It is objectively more advanced in many ways. The real problem is when you justify that with genetics, IQ, or some kind of innate superiority when the real reason has more to do with geographical and historical factors, and most importantly the situation is not hopeless or irredeemable. Underdeveloped countries and cultures are fully capable of advancing to the level of white western civilization. It will just take some time. So we don't need to treat them as hopeless, but rather help speed them along.

And also, it's important to acknowledge the great qualities of non-western cultures. In some ways they are better and more advanced than the white west. India, for example, has crazy spiritual development which puts the west to shame.

The general solution here is simple: start loving all cultures and peoples and treat them as if you will one day be born as one of them.

I think if you look at history different civilizations have been at the top at different times. Maybe during the Dark Ages, the Islamic civilization of at the top, or maybe during BCE India was at the top. 

[Leo Gura]

24 minutes ago, Akemrelax said:

I think if you look at history different civilizations have been at the top at different times. Maybe during the Dark Ages, the Islamic civilization of at the top, or maybe during BCE India was at the top. 

Yes, there's no guarantee the west will remain most advanced forever. It's an endless horse race with different horses in the lead at different times.

Which is why it's silly to make a big deal when your horse happens to gain the lead. Your horse ain't as special as you think it is just because it is your horse.

The mistake is to cheer for one horse over all the others when you could be cheering for all the horses and the whole dynamic of the race. Right-wingers make this mistake of cheer-leading for one horse. A horse is a horse, of course, of course, which means in the end every horse dies.

[Epikur]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, there's no guarantee the west will remain most advanced forever. It's an endless horse race with different horses in the lead at different times.

Which is why it's silly to make a big deal when your horse happens to gain the lead. Your horse ain't as special as you think it is just because it is your horse.

The mistake is to cheer for one horse over all the others when you could be cheering for all the horses and the whole dynamic of the race. Right-wingers make this mistake of cheer-leading for one horse. Of course what they don't realize is in the end every horse dies.

I am not shure why people of a group should cheer for the other group. In general when your group (or just yourself) win they get a lot of "valuable" things for example power. I guess that is why they work so hard in the first place. 

If their win does not give them special powers they might not be motivated to do anything. 

Other example if you win in a gamble you probably are happy but if a stranger wins you will not care. 

Maybe some form of special system that can be created that is so fair that the people who work hard get enough value back. 

I guess the progressives tend to think it's possible

The conservatives think less that way.

The truth might be somewhere between them.


 

[Akemrelax]

4 minutes ago, Epikur said:

I am not shure why people of a group should cheer for the other group. In general when your group (or just yourself) win they get a lot of "valuable" things for example power. I guess that is why they work so hard in the first place. 

If their win does not give them special powers they might not be motivated to do anything. 

Other example if you win in a gamble you probably are happy but if a stranger wins you will not care. 

Maybe some form of special system that can be created that is so fair that the people who work hard get enough value back. 

I guess the progressives tend to think it's possible

The conservatives think less that way.

The truth might be somewhere between them.
 

I think you assume that there is no other motivation other than competition. This is a very Blue/Orange way of looking.

Look at the motivation of Jesus Christ or other historic figures, they are motivated by Love. Love, positive motivation is way stronger than negative motivation, competition. 

Edited July 2, 2020 by Akemrelax

[Leo Gura]

13 minutes ago, Epikur said:

I am not shure why people of a group should cheer for the other group.

This hinges on how deeply you realize that you are the entire horse race and every horse in the race. If your identity is limited to that of one particular horse, then you will only cheer for that horse.

But it is possible to realize that you are the entire playing field -- that we are all ONE -- and that life does not have to be zero-sum game. By working harmoniously we can all profit.

Conservatives identify with one horse.

Progressives want every horse to do well.

[Leo Gura]

Just to pour some gasoline on this campfire:

 

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@Serotoninluv Underdeveloped countries and cultures are fully capable of advancing to the level of white western civilization. It will just take some time. So we don't need to treat them as hopeless, but rather help speed them along.

It seems like we are far away from that ideal. How many Americans would want to help underdeveloped Central American countries? I’d say a minority. Even for countries that would be beneficial to us. For example, helping Brazil move along would be beneficial, especially with preserving the rainforest and global climate health.

Often the U.S. talks about good intentions after invading a foreign country. Giving them democracy, building infrastructure etc. Yet it only seems like a half-hearted ideal. And there are conflicts of interest, such as wanting influence over oil or using their country for geographic strategy purposes. 
 

18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Conservatives identify with one horse.

Progressives want every horse to do well.

Do you think there is a dynamic in which someone that is a leading horse believes that they want every horse to do well. Yet when the other horses catch up , or pass them, they get uncomfortable. For example, a white progressive person may genuinely advocate for more racial equality at their work. Yet when when upper leadership actually become people of color that are calling the shots, that changes things.

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Often the U.S. talks about good intentions after invading a foreign country. Giving them democracy, building infrastructure etc. Yet it only seems like a half-hearted ideal. And there are conflicts of interest, such as wanting influence over oil or using their country for geographic strategy purposes.

Obviously we aren't there yet.

To really realize that ideal our government would have to become stage Turquoise.

But we don't need to wait that long. Many of those non-western parts of the world will raise themselves to the west's level in the next 50-100 years. China and India are on the way. Especially if the US doesn't bully or exploit them. It would be great progress for the US to just stop bullying others. Many South America countries were terribly exploited by the US, with their democratic populist governments undermined for corporate profit.

[Forestluv]

 

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Obviously we aren't there yet.

To really realize that ideal our government would have to become stage Turquoise.

Not in this human lifetime. I probably have less than 50 years left in this human body and won’t see it?

It gives me greater appreciation for old people when I hear them say: “I never thought I’d see this in my lifetime” -  in regards to big cultural changes.

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

won’t see the day.

See it in your mind's eye and rest in peace

You don't need to wait for God to materialize the inevitable as long as you can envision it. MLK style.

[Forestluv]

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

See it in your mind's eye and rest in peace

You don't need to wait for God to materialize the inevitable as long as you can envision it.

Thanks.

[Epikur]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Just to pour some gasoline on this campfire:

 

Religios people are easier to disprove because science is not so important for them

The next level would be Vaush's debate with the canadian french evolutional biologist. 


https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/unique-everybody-else/201211/cold-winters-and-the-evolution-intelligence
 

[Free Mind]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Obviously we aren't there yet.

To really realize that ideal our government would have to become stage Turquoise.

But we don't need to wait that long. Many of those non-western parts of the world will raise themselves to the west's level in the next 50-100 years. China and India are on the way. Especially if the US doesn't bully or exploit them. It would be great progress for the US to just stop bullying others. Many South America countries were terribly exploited by the US, with their democratic populist governments undermined for corporate profit.

China maybe, but for India it’ll take a lot more time than that.

Edited July 2, 2020 by Free Mind

[crab12]

I appreciate you recognizing Molyneux's merit and not condemning him as a person for talking about IQ in one of his videos. You keep bringing up white superiority a lot, I don't think Molyneux beieves whites are superior to others, nor anyone serious on the conservative side believes that.

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This hinges on how deeply you realize that you are the entire horse race and every horse in the race. If your identity is limited to that of one particular horse, then you will only cheer for that horse.

But it is possible to realize that you are the entire playing field -- that we are all ONE -- and that life does not have to be zero-sum game. By working harmoniously we can all profit.

Conservatives identify with one horse.

Progressives want every horse to do well.

I like this analogy. The conservative horse is seeing that other horses are not being fair to him, the message is you have to lose so that others could win, but we want to win as well.

edit: you see that conservatives develop these weird and complex ideologies. This is because conservatives are shamed and told what they want is unacceptable, so they develop these ideologies to mask what they want and to bypass the norms of acceptability. Conservatives basically share a desire for family oriented christian modest spiritual community, this is what unites us. It doesn't even have to be christian, but this is something we already share and is a good blueprint for spirituality, all the neuroticism of evangelicals, fundamentalists and other boomer christian cults can be grown out of.

Edited July 2, 2020 by crab12

[Girzo]

Quote

I’ve noticed a vague sense that white western civilization is better outside of white western civilization. In my travels through central and South America, I noticed vague senses that white western civilization is better. For example, in somewhat remote areas of Peru there would be a billboard of a woman that was sorta white woman and sorta western looking. Her skin was much lighter than any Peruvian woman I saw, yet she still sorta looked Peruvian. I don’t know if she had skin whitening treatment or they brushed the photograph. And there was a glorification of western culture: the makeup, jewelry and and clothing. As if to say “This is beautiful and successful”.

I have heard it has nothing to do with the "white western civilization", but with the fact that wealthy people in power could historically afford to stay in the palace or somewhere and not get sunburned like the peasants working in the fields. That's the source of whiter = better in places like India.

Edited July 2, 2020 by Girzo

[mandyjw]

4 hours ago, Apparition of Jack said:

I kind of feel like it's part of my Life Purpose to help "re-spiritualise" the West, since for someone as spiritually sensitive as I am living here has been horrific at times. While I appreciate what Western culture has done in terms of law, technology, human right's etc. I feel like we're still missing out soo much that other cultures just know intuitively because we've just kind of forgotten about it or suppressed it for the last 500 years or so.

I think the values of freedom and the "American dream" have deeply spiritual roots, which is why America is the birthplace of the law of attraction spiritual teachings. "Think and Grow Rich" is America's flavor of spirituality. Most people exclude the material world from spirituality, but it's unavoidably a part of the whole. The misunderstanding of materialism can be interpreted differently depending on your ideals and the success you see and believe is possible growing up. It's usually shunned rather than embraced by those who see themselves as spiritual but can never be transcended that way.

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This hinges on how deeply you realize that you are the entire horse race and every horse in the race. If your identity is limited to that of one particular horse, then you will only cheer for that horse.

But it is possible to realize that you are the entire playing field -- that we are all ONE -- and that life does not have to be zero-sum game. By working harmoniously we can all profit.

Conservatives identify with one horse.

Progressives want every horse to do well.

I love the horse race analogy. But it's not a race really, just a pack of wild mustangs doing what they do. 

[Apparition of Jack]

14 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

I think the values of freedom and the "American dream" have deeply spiritual roots, which is why America is the birthplace of the law of attraction spiritual teachings. "Think and Grow Rich" is America's flavor of spirituality. Most people exclude the material world from spirituality, but it's unavoidably a part of the whole. The misunderstanding of materialism can be interpreted differently depending on your ideals and the success you see and believe is possible growing up. It's usually shunned rather than embraced by those who see themselves as spiritual but can never be transcended that way.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'm not saying we should get rid of technology, civil rights, material wealth or anything like that. I personally enjoy having access to world-class healthcare and stable judiciary systems for instance, plus I love movies, video games, etc.

I just think we could also add a lot to our understanding of reality and society by incorporating the last arts of energy work, esotericism, bhakti, long-form poetry, divination, astrology, dream work, alchemy, etc. You don't even necessarily have to call them that, just so long as these methods are accepted and utilised properly. I've known people who've spent years struggling through counselors, psychiatrists, etc. who's problems could be solved if they instead just did some mushrooms or did a tarot reading to really pin-point the subconscious forces they were fighting against. I myself have been through the pyschiatric system and derived basically nothing useful from it.

And it's not just like these are useful for people who are suffering deeply either, I see businessmen, bar tenders, game developers, etc. who are living otherwise "normal" lives but I can just tell they're struggling with inner apathy / anxiety / depression / confusion because they've never been given the tools to investigate their inner world and actually leave a more meaningful life. I barely hang out with people these days because it's just too depressing seeing how much potential is being wasted through a lack of knowledge about the inner world. Even people who are "happy" on the outside seem to just find their happiness through constant hedonism.

And my point is that none of this is necessarily a problem in itself, the problem is that there's no social recognition of it, and that any effort to deal with it is seen as a "weird little hobby" at best, or downright confusing and dangerous at worst. If someone in India is struggling with depression or relationship issues or a career they hate or anything else like that, it's socially acceptable to go to your village yogi, and he or she will then analyse the situation, give you some cleansing activity to do, and the issue will be dealt with head-on then-and-there. In the West, however, it seems like your go-to response for any sort of inner turmoil is either scientific counseling, which (to me) is a dull and grey affair, abuse of substances (which is not only socially acceptable but actively encouraged), or you just become a sarcastic nihilist and brute-force your way through life. You can, of course, go to a New Age sharing circle or a desert festival and do mushrooms, and these are genuinely uplifting activities that truly benefit people, but they are still, at most, fringe activities that in many ways are still shunned by society at large.

I think Bhikku Bodhi put it best when he said that the West is a materially first-world but a spiritually third-world civilisation. We've made a lot of progress in so many spheres, but a combination of our endless media cycle, alienation from nature, brute materialism as the mainstream metaphysical position and other factors have left our souls atrophied and traumatized. Perhaps I'm projecting a little here, but I truly do think that Westerners are by and large spiritually ignorant and immature. This is not to say that other cultures are somehow these spiritually-pure beings who laugh at us foolish materialists, god only knows how many problems there are in India, Nepal, etc., but I feel like there's a "sphere" of life that's accepted in these countries that isn't really at all in the West (not unless you're using very coded language and marketing it in terms that fits in with our predominantly-materialist paradigm.)

[mandyjw]

@Apparition of Jack I know, but it's essentially still all your perception of society and societal pressures as a whole, but as individuals we have all the freedom in the world to do as we please and see things as we please. I've been spoiled, I grew up in a poor rural area of the US so I've had access to all the freedoms and most of the opportunities but felt very little of the pressure for material success. What little I've achieved seems more than enough. Whenever I've traveled and visited cities I feel this intense excitement and motivation and then a nauseous feeling and longing for home sets in. It takes major practice, presence and focus to take the inspiration, leave the rest and not be overly effected by the energy of your environment and the people around you. 

Nothing makes you want wild sex, hot cars, a burger and an ice cream cone like living in an Ashram and nothing makes you want to live in an ashram like being surrounded by wild sex, hot cars, burgers and ice cream.  Ah... freedom. Such fickle creatures we are. The only real freedom there is is freedom from being fickle and seeing through desire itself. Desire is spirituality itself, without desire there's no need for God or divine connection, it's just whatever is. In those terms Americans are intensely spiritual. 

 

[lmfao]

I don't know to what extent social media websites should be allowed to block certain speech, or allow certain speech. So I don't know if this was right. If you consider all these different websites together, they form a monopoly over communication and hold the fate of humanity in their mind. At this point, these websites are so large that they aren't just private companies who can do what they want. 

That said. Preventing harassment and bullying is a good idea. 
-----
Also, this fucking video you linked in hilarious. "People at chapo always made this joke.....if the /r/the_donald is ever banned, Chapo would be as well. That would be the enlightened centrist altar at which Chapo was scarificed"

Edited July 2, 2020 by lmfao