Why Isn't Leo Enlightened Yet? Any Helpful Ideas?

[Salaam]

@Joe Schmoe

I think I feel where you're coming from man, or can at least sympathize. Hopefully the passive aggressive responses you get won't be too discouraging for you

Personally, I feel like enlightenment is unbalanced, kiddie shit pedestalization of natural phenomena that has structural mirrors in other parts of nature, but I've seen and changed a lot to reach that perspective and have no qualms with the reactions or flack people give to me for it.

Unfortunately, trying to communicate more evolved stuff with people doesn't work all that well (depending on the relative distance of growth between people), because what we're trying to transfer to people via communication can't fully be transferred by words and ideas. What I mean by that, is these changes are way more than intellectual knowledge, but also physical shifts of internal structure and the population of what a person has internalized. People who haven't under-gone those shifts will still have beliefs, standards, and expectations, that will run contrary to processes of growth, but more importantly they will lack the mental and physical capabilities to hold the level of nuance necessary to bring about those shifts in the first place, plus balance, shelter, and nurture them in the face of countervailing influences.

For example, most people have no experience with having actual capability with the mechanism behind how we attach or repel from things that have chemistry with us. Emotional charge, degree of attachment or repulsion, flavor or variation of attachment/repulsion, speed, and it's impact on how we make choices and perceive the world. Buddha unfortunately seemed to suck at this and thought detachment and the void was the greatest thing ever, when really that's just swinging the pendulum in the other direction, rather than gaining actual capability and control over the pendulum itself (based on my experience).

But whatever, the majority around here are into "no-self" and "just sit there and believe" and "everything will drop and they'll be one". Unfortunately, even if you deeply internalize this, all that you've really gained is a strong ability to relate to the world as all one thing, which could improve internal state, BUT, that doesn't mean the rest of nature will relate to you in that same way (actually your body will fight it in most cases, because how most do it is unhealthy and destroys the self-referential system which has important functions). What, I'm saying is you can think you're all one with a bullet or the rain for instance, but if you don't get out of it's way or build or find a shelter, it will kill you. And by kill, I mean sever the connections holding and preserving all the structures that give your consciousness the capabilities it currently enjoys.  

Relation or Rapport is a great and very valuable ability to work on, it's foundational to the process of growth, but it's only a facet. There is much more.

If you're interested, you can give this a read. See how it resonates...
 

 

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Joe Schmoe said:

And I mean heard the voices and sounds with my ears. I'll share more one day @Emerald Wilkins. That's enough to get you on meds and a cat scan right there.

I didn't mean drug-wise as I'm not interested in that at this point in my life. I meant in terms of awakening and non-duality. I thought you meant that you either had a glimpse or an awakening and I was curious. 

[99th_monkey]

38 minutes ago, Joe Schmoe said:

I'll tell you that those mindfulness coloring books are intended to get those creative juices flowing and would probably benefit you more than sitting there thinking you're nothing.

Maybe you should borrow some crayons from your little monkey and listen to what she has to say and play along  may benefit you more than thinking you're nothing as well. ✌?

Aw you're mean. I don't wanna play with you anymore, im going home, hhhmmmmmpphhh

[Kevin Dunlop]

16 hours ago, Joe Schmoe said:

Are you enlightened @Lorenzo Engel

I bet you @Khin Leo will not be the one to give you the map.

I like your snappy comment it made me laugh too. Authenticity is new in every moment. We each have an infinite nature others cannot understand.

 I remember reading a book about Bodhisattva. After being enlightened he didnt want to go back to the people at all but finally he was convinced to share. It turned out to be very dangerous for him, ( they wanted to crush him with an elephant and some rocks!) Good read. 

I wouldnt call it ¨hiding¨ though fur sure you dont want people to see you, or be bothered or tell anyone about it. I call it camping out. And the freak thing is just a label, it doesnt matter. I agree with Leos advice ¨living a simple natural life is my way¨.

 

My only advice to Leo is ¨follow your own advice¨ . Live a simple natural life. Dont worry about the buisness, follow your authentic desire and become a Yogi who lives in nature, forget the complications they are not simple enough for your path to enlightenment. If I went to your house and looked around would I say ¨Wow!Leo lives a really simple natural life?¨ 

Owning is an ego objective very foundational to the Postmodern identity, but every owned object is like an aspect of the ego in physical form, they weigh you down in life in a cupple of ways. Physically if you have alot of stuff you need a house to put it in, you need a job to pay for the house, you need a car to get to the job. All so your big TV doesnt get wet in the rain. Thats alot of work just so one can complete the list of postmodern ego objectives. Then there is this psycological weight that you only feel lifted when you get rid of all that stuff. Fewwww that feels good just thinking about it. 

Edited July 25, 2016 by Kevin Dunlop

[cetus]

20 minutes ago, 99th_monkey said:

Aw you're mean. I don't wanna play with you anymore, im going home, hhhmmmmmpphhh

Leo calls this a "sandbox". You gotta laugh !  Each thought a grain of sand. I got my pile!

[Kevin Dunlop]

17 hours ago, Joe Schmoe said:

Enlightenment doesn't really sound all that exciting. Sounds like a waste time pursuing nothing. 

Its never boring. It makes everything exciting, as exciting as you want it to be. Waste of time, yes, but in a good way, the best thing to do with time is waste it. No obligations, full trust in whatever is, free to waste all the time you want. Persuing nothing, I dont know? Its good to see the identity as offering nothing important, all of its plans mean nothing. Everything you imagime youll get by following your identity is nothing, not real, not true ,not the only way. You are a speck of dust in the scale of time and the universe, like a speck of sand at the beach, millions of planets of sand so thats pretty colse to nothing already. Not important. So free to go do nothing and enjoy it. Everything is still there it just doesnt have a specific purpose or name draging it down. This identity, naming game takes the truth out of reality, makes it unenjoyable.

 

[Kevin Dunlop]

6 minutes ago, cetus56 said:

Leo calls this a "sandbox". You gotta laugh !  Each thought a grain of sand. I got my pile!

 

 

[jjer94]

@Joe Schmoe Imagine for a moment that you are the number Zero. Zero is ground-zero reality: undifferentiated, untethered, just itself, not even an "it". Just the fabric of reality, eternal and unchanging. Synonyms for Zero: the void, Self, Brahman, Infinity, Truth, Pure awareness, nothingness, no-thing. Zero is sad because it can't be aware of itself. It is totally void of sentience and objects. 

So what does it do? It creates the finite illusions of One and Two. Zero inhabits One, the human I-perspective. This is where things get tricky. Zero wants to spice things up, so it inhabits many "One's" and tricks itself into believing in the illusion of Two. Another common word for Two is Maya. Two is the illusion of duality, particularly that there is a "perceiver" and there is the "perceived," as opposed to the One perspective which is just "perceiving." In that way, Zero can ride along in the One perspective and dream as Two: that it is a separate entity called a "self" or "ego." Two inevitably obstructs Zero due to identification.

So enlightenment is like hide-and-seek. It's the realization and cultivation of your Zero nature. By creating the illusion of finiteness with One and Two, Zero can then use finiteness as a reference point to become aware of itself. Have you ever heard the teachers say that enlightenment is "Awareness being aware of itself?" Without One and Two, Zero can't be aware of anything (e.g. deep sleep). With One and Two, Zero can be aware of One and Two and itself. 

The path to enlightenment mainly consists of seeing through the illusion of Two. Seeing through your illusions is synonymous with disidentification, and it's often quite painful. But that's another topic.

Many people see enlightenment as a good thing, some see it as a bad thing. Fundamentally, it's neutral. If it happens, it happens.

Hope that clears things up a bit. If you're more confused, that may be a good thing.

Cheers!

Edited July 25, 2016 by jjer94

[Kevin Dunlop]

3 hours ago, Arik said:

 I just let my intuition do its thing. It's always right. Even if it's not.

Cheers, hope this helps.

I really am glad you shared, a comment like that makes this forum so much more indepth. I am on the same level with so many points you made about your experience and that does help. Ill let you know what I can confirm, Intuition is always right even if you dont see how right away it changes your path for the better. When one sees reality for what it is everything is beautiful. Letting it be filtered away by identity labels does it no justice. Equally letting your experience be reduced away to be just the conditioned identity does it no justice. The fight is a fight for experiencing egos objectives against experiencing true reality. True reality comes effortlessly ego creates a fight. So for sure just let go and let intuition be the guide not ego. If you give up you can leave the war. You realize it doesnt matter its not your fight. Shit takes care of itself the ego wants you to fear that if you dont XYZ everything will go wrong. Really you( the identity you were given) are not needed you can go on holidays reality isnt a weight on your shoulders any more. The presence you spoke of I do know. It is a force of reassurance when you get really scared. It helps you come back from an overly intense situation, quite amazing. 

Great post thanks so much!! Ohmmmm

[Kevin Dunlop]

14 hours ago, Kevin Dunlop said:

 

 

 

14 hours ago, jjer94 said:

It's the realization and cultivation of your Zero nature. By creating the illusion of finiteness with One and Two, Zero can then use finiteness as a reference point to become aware of itself.

Thanks for explaining, I was wondering about how people are thinking of enlightenment. I am sure there are many definitions and its good to have one so clear. I must admit that I wasnt expecting the forum to be about enlightenment, I saw the name actualized so thought it was about self-actualization which, for me, consisted of bettering the original  learned identity; that produce my life conditions, objectives and responses to what I interpret as going on. Consciously replacing old unconscious communication tools with better ones,  for example, so that I dont get myself into uneeded trouble with people. So I was doing conscious mind editing and getting good results but I didnt research enlightenment before getting into these conversations. It is easy for me though to understand the nature of the identity and realize its disfunctions. But having more respect for spiritual concepts takes this self-awareness project to another level. Thanks I do have more questions though. What does enlightenment change in the daily life of a person? What are the characteristics a person exihibits living an enlightened life. I have read about  bodhisattva. An enlightened prince who wanted to leave society but was convinced to teach people. He made some lists of rules for them to follow ect. Do enlightened people have certian characteristics that enlightenment brings? How does one know if they are enlightened, what does it feel like? Many talk about enlightenment experiences but is there a perminant state too that one lives in?

[so here we are]

 

[jjer94]

4 hours ago, Kevin Dunlop said:

Thanks I do have more questions though. What does enlightenment change in the daily life of a person? What are the characteristics a person exihibits living an enlightened life. I have read about  bodhisattva. An enlightened prince who wanted to leave society but was convinced to teach people. He made some lists of rules for them to follow ect. Do enlightened people have certian characteristics that enlightenment brings? How does one know if they are enlightened, what does it feel like? Many talk about enlightenment experiences but is there a perminant state too that one lives in?

Enlightenment is permanent. The enlightened state is simply your present experience, unfiltered! It's not a constant "feeling" of bliss or what have you. If you're chasing after bliss, that's just another one of ego's carrot chases, so beware. All experiences pass; enlightenment stays the same. Very subtle, and very simple.

Fundamentally, nothing changes. On the surface, everything changes. How circumstances change after enlightenment vary from person to person. Some may become "bodhisattvas," others may become hermits. Some may vandalize a parking lot, others may feed starving children in Africa. It's all up in the air after realizing that the person has no control whatsoever over what they do, as well as realizing there's no such thing as morality. 

You're a caterpillar trying to build a conceptual framework of what it's like to be a butterfly. But that conceptual framework will only hold you back from metamorphosis. I suggest that you forget about the antics of the butterfly and instead focus on the inner work to become one!

Cheers.

[Kevin Dunlop]

2 hours ago, jjer94 said:

Enlightenment is permanent. The enlightened state is simply your present experience, unfiltered!

I was fortunate enough to learn first hand how filtering reality, using my identity, is really harmful to people and me. Heres the story. I got a job doing child care. No one else wanted to look after these two kids, their mom apologized in advance for how difficult it was going to be. But I took the job and started passing every day with them. Their Mom was right they were really hard to deal with. Fortunately my girlfriend was a teacher and was taking a course called Restitution for the classroom. She gave me the 12 pages of worksheets to look over. I decided to be openminded and try some of it out on these two kids. So I taped the printouts with phrases they suggested using up on the wall in the kids house. Every time something bad happened I wouldnt say anything to them from my own learned identity, I just read a phrase from one of the restitution photocopies on the wall. I instantly realized that EVERYTHING changed between me and these kids when I did this. They started listening to me, co-operating, cleaning up, being nice. All because my identity was not created by experts and it was causing all the problems without me knowing it. That little experiment in identity editing showed me how much of a disaster unconsciously using our postmodern identities to filter everything is. Their Mom came up to me 3 weeks later and said ¨What did you do to my kids, they are completely different its really nice¨ I just showed her the photocopies again and explained how we were making the situation bad without knowing it. She was expecting them to be bad, calling them bad and being a bad ass example what can you expect. So naturally I was impressed and started reading more and experimenting more and editing more of my identity out, but always replacing it with other better identity tools. That was good enough for me. Arming my identity with updated functional tools all the time has been great, I dont get into trouble with other people anymore. But now I see this identity work can go further by not having the identity at all. Even a really good identity is still not true reality. 

[Kevin Dunlop]

5 hours ago, jjer94 said:

the person has no control whatsoever over what they do, as well as realizing there's no such thing as morality. 

 

 

These two Phrases caught my interest. So when I was walking outside tonight I was thinking about the ¨ having no control over what you do¨ thing and I remember also people here discussing freewill. So this objection came to mind first, ¨If I decide to stay in the house all day tomorrow, and actually do it, I would have controlled what I did, right? Then I just began to allow the phrase to sink in with no objections. If I cant control what I do, then I dont need to try to control what I do. So I went into this intuitive mode of not controling where I was going, I was just seeing the stones in the sidewalk as I passed over them, this beautiful tree silhouetted infront of the dark blue sky, than all these motorbikes went by and I felt like I did when I was a kid and went to the county fair, everything was new and interesting and energizing. Then I realized that I didnt know where I was so I looked around and noticed I was on a street I normally dont use. I had the urge to go into a store there I normally dont go into because I thought it was expensive. Turns out it wasnt so I bought some stuff I needed that I wasnt getting before because of these limitations. Things were going really well not controlling what I did. I realized it was alot better living in this mode. Then I thought ¨this works because I am just telling my ego it cannot control my experience and it doesnt need to try. Things go alot better without the egos limitations. Thanks Ill do more of this experiencing no control. 

 

[Emerald]

On 7/25/2016 at 6:11 AM, Richard Alpert said:

He needs to move into a cave, the ice-cream druck driver is a big distraction

Ice cream trucks are the reason why Leo isn't enlightened... it's all so clear now!

[Ayla]

6 hours ago, Kevin Dunlop said:

Things were going really well not controlling what I did. I realized it was alot better living in this mode. Then I thought ¨this works because I am just telling my ego it cannot control my experience and it doesnt need to try. Things go alot better without the egos limitations.

@Kevin Dunlop, in neither of the circumstances was any YOU controlling or not controlling any of the experiences. BOTH states are just happenings in a body. The only difference is that in the second situation, mind has been AWARE of it. Mental constructs have received enough information and instructions to take another path and so to experience differently. All this, is due to billions of factors that have come together like in a dance, but there is and never was any "central unit" (you) experiencing it. 

 

[Ayla]

On 7/25/2016 at 10:24 PM, Arik said:

That mindset - although I see your noble intentions with this - is the same exact reason why I guess most people are not enlightened (by that I mean being aware of their enlightenment) and end up on a way too long journey to even seeing the first glimpse of it. 

I can't and won't guess anything about Leo's situation - although I sometimes think I know this guy so deeply just from seeing and connecting to all of his stuff (it was the seed to change my whole fucking existence) I really have no fucking clue if I'm honest.

All I know (from direct experience) is this: On my journey real progress started to happen after I tried for a good year "to just let go" and stopped it because I was being let in on the secret that it doesn't fucking matter what I do or not do about it. I think I can let go when I let go and I think I can't let go when I don't.

At that point I still did my daily meditation (still do that of course) but I just didn't give a shit any more. I quit on an inner level with this because I saw it just doesn't matter. In the beginning of this phase this was honestly just a very very nuanced way to trying to get it, because I knew you get much closer if you surrender.

So this then put me in a deadlock basically. All I wanted on some level was to get it but on another level I couldn't fight for it any more because I knew it doesn't matter. I knew that because I became aware that I don't think my thoughts but they arise like hiccups. When you experience this for some time ... your life drastically changes.

My changed to the worse for a good 2-3 months. From day to day I would be more aware of not being in charge while all my emotions would kill me, my mind would go nuts and I barely could handle it (I knew that this was necessary to get all the shit out ... but it's more than hard). Then I fell in love and shortly after that I was being let down - not rejected but I saw how this would not play out the way I want it to be. At that point ... that was like 10 days ago I guess my brain just gave up because it saw that if that pain would add up to my normal pain at the time I couldn't live any longer. It was just too hard. So it gave up. I physically felt how like a rock in my brain collapsed on itself and that it just gave up.

From then on, I had not a single moment of anxiety any more. I feel everything one can feel, good, bad, jealous, angry, but I'm not scared of being scared. I see something in everything that is the same. Sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't. But I don't have to cling to it, because I can see it at every time I want to. I see how I don't do shit, but how shit just does itself. I see pure perfection in everything and I can not tell you any difference between my senses if I'm honest. From a deeper perspective it seems all the same to me - incarnating itself in so beautiful forms.

I talk to my inner child a lot. I'm very sorry for what it had to face in our life until now. I integrate deeper on a daily basis. I take every emotion and surrender to its core until it just vanishes and massages me. And I just let my intuition do its thing. It's always right. Even if it's not.

And lastly, I am aware of an intelligence, that incarnates this very only present moment. You can come in contact with it, it sometime likes to fuck you up and it sometime likes to pleases you. It's like a presence that is always there, I feel its warmth around me. I could tell you 1000 things about it but I don't, because maybe 1% of you who read this know this themselves and the rest thinks I'm crazy. Maybe at a later time, guys.

But I give you one hint, do you think it's a coincidence that nature does something as beautiful as the Niagara Falls and creates a mean (us) to see it in the brightest colors? If you really think about it, this is as mystical and crazy as it gets. And by coincidence I mean I want you to think about the "no-thing" that brings this into being ... while creating humans to see it and find it beautiful. Think about that.

So yeah, to sum it up. What helped me was that I gave up, the pain was too much and my brain had to give up to go on. I'm at the beginning of something new. Not even at the beginning, I opened a door and sometimes look what is on the other side. I'll take the rest of this life to go inside and look what's there.

So maybe you need some more pain to let go? I did. Maybe you need to integrate you inner child to let go? I did. Maybe you need to stop doing whatever you are doing to get it and let it get you? I did.

Cheers, hope this helps.

Beautiful. Thank you for this.  

[Kevin Dunlop]

On 25/7/2016 at 2:27 AM, Emerald Wilkins said:

I noticed (on both occasions as I did it twice) that my identity wasn't really me and I was able to truly let go of my identification with it.

I am starting to get this too now. I was able to see the identity for what it was a long time ago when I began edititng it with new beliefs to make my life easier with other people. I realized that my identity was  just a poorly made dictionary of learned ways to interpret the world and how to respond to those interpretations. It was made by adults teaching me when I was younger and I excepted their teachings as truth. This identity was useful for a while but the problem with it is that it filters out true reality, your authentic life gets replaced with a lie, and it feels all wrong. Most people defend their identity fiercely out of fear because it does allow them to live and is part of their society. But the identity is not you, its just a book of ideas you use to live. The next level of this is if the identity is not you what is you? I am beginning to think that the ¨you¨ is also created by the identity. The identity creates this manager to keep it going, to keep experiencing it. When authentic experience without the identity happen there is no you either. The identity is not real truth neither is being the ¨you¨manager of the identities made up reality. So its really hard to be in that next level of ¨no you¨ because to the identity´s world view has been organizing this for itself a long time. 

[Kevin Dunlop]

On 25/7/2016 at 8:48 AM, Piotr said:

I think they tend to sift trough what they know to be leading to mind identification and suffering. If the ego hasn't disolved yet they might ocassionally be mistaken with their advice, but it's all grounded in direct experience. There is connection with deep reality where it's obvious that any assessment of others conditioning might be wrong and it's not who that person is. That's my current understanding of it and why I think it's a "one man's journey" and it's impossible to get anyone closer to enlightenment if you're not enlightened yourself really, because there's an agenda to get somewhere where the person is not welcomed in a sense ?

Deep reality, I like the term. I am following some advice from people in these comments and am able to experience what they are taliking about after going through a period of wrestling with my ego´s objections there is a deep reality when we arent trying to label it any more and become aware of it.  A question I had is what is Actualized.org for if advice from non-enlightened people doesnt help people with enlightenment? 

Edited July 29, 2016 by Kevin Dunlop

[Kevin Dunlop]

On 25/7/2016 at 1:29 PM, Khin said:

@Joe Schmoe Yes, enlightenment has stages and Leo is where the map is at. I'm not saying Leo will give me the map. But at least he can help us how to get the map. 

We cannot rely on others to become enlightened, but we can't ignore the fact that we need help sometimes.

 

I dont know much about enlightenment, but I really benefit from taking time to believe some peoples advice and try it out. If its not true for me, fine I dont need to believe it any more. Belief is not perminant its a way of trying on a point of view for me.  It doesnt hurt to open up the mind to new perspectives. I really enjoy learning and experiencing from others advice, then there is a point where you go beyond it all too.