What Would Love Do?

[WaveInTheOcean]

28 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

Love is playful, indeed ? 

It is. Sure, I appreciate ppl in here playing devils' advocate towards dudes and girls seeking enligthenment. Cos that is what is often needed to make them see the irrationality of their "logic" (this contradicts what I just said before, I know:D) . Human beings are inherently irrational creatues. All the logic we apply to our feelings is just "our feelings' way" of distancing ourself (concept-self) from ourself (feelings).

We are emotional creatues. We are feelings.

We are not thinking creatues.

Sure, humans have the unique ability to be able to think and be self-conscious (= live in concepts). So in that sense we are thinking creatures  BUT. Feelings ALWAYS come first. It's the top priority. It is what is, in a sense. It is "real", while thinking/concepts is not. All that matters in a human life is ultimately to become happy. We all seek permanent happiness. If you think you can get it by external factors (which 90+% of ppl do,), you'll never be really happy. We have to go an inner journey (spirituality) and find our true self; there lies true happiness.

Awakening of the Heart = constant non-resistance towards any feelings/impulses. Free expression is now possible. Before awakening of the heart there is pretty much only depression (no free expression) in a human life, except for fleeting moments of pure expression (= merging with the Now).

Awakening of the Mind/rational thinking = understanding the Truth relatively/conceptually/rationally, i.e. that we are all One (pretty easily obtainable for INTP's and 5's in Enneagram by the way).

90+% of adult humans are forever asleep in both mind (rational thinking) and heart (non-resistance towards feelings).

All animals -- and also human babies -- are born "awake" in Heart, but completely asleep in Mind.

Animals are forever stuck asleep in mind (i.e. this is what makes them forever awake in Heart, you see?).

As human babies grow to become teenagers they become insanely asleep in Heart (development of ego-energy), while remaining pretty much still asleep in Mind, as well.

However, all humans have the potential to awaken in both Heart as well as Mind.  And this is important.

Awakening of both = what I consider to be an actual enlightened woman / man.

Awakening of Heart only and close to zero Mind = what we could call a Zen Devil in an outward destructive way. He lacks understanding of what he has awakened to. This is pretty much the same as becoming an ape in a suit, even more ape-like than normal ppl who are still asleep in Heart, you see? Because now there is no egoic constraints (no ego energy; ego can be "good as well" in regards to making us civilized; ofc you don't need it when both mind and heart is awakened), no problems of self-image (since you intuitively, emotionally know you are not a self; you just don't understand the logical ramifcations of this, since you are still asleep in mind). This means that a dude who is awakened only in Heart and almost zero Mind could actually express impulses that are "bad", not in accordance with "The Law of Oneness"; such as for example rape, and I don't know what. 

I mean, I think all guys have fantazied about raping at least once in their life (lets get real, many times for most probably). It can turn on us, fantasizing about it (destructive masculine energy, hello), but we usually get embarrased afterwards, because of problems with our self-image as "good person". It is "good" that we get embarrased about it, even though the embarrasment comes from ego-energy. If we didn't get embarrased about, such as a dude who has awakened in Heart but not Mind, we could actually react to such impulses and do horrible things ... to ourself... because the women you then rape is of course ultimately also you (Oneness, hello). 

Awakening of Mind only = what we also could call a Zen Devil, just in a more civilized way, a more inward destructive way. This is basically what nihilism is. You adopt a mindset of "nothing matters" cos you conceptually know it's all game (it's all one). However, you of course don't FEEL that. So you are still depressed as fuck. Awakening of Mind and not Heart may be what "Dark night of the Soul" is all about. In that sense, Awakening of the Mind can also impact you emotionally, just in a "bad" way, until the suffering you then go through leads you to awakening of the Heart :-) 

Awakening of the Mind - without Heart - can also easily lead one to gigantic spiritual egos, cos you may conceptually think you are enlightened and got it all figured out, while you still emotionally of course feel like a separate self, which means your projected enlightenment onto yourself is very fake and dishonest (even if you don't even see that dishonesty, cos you're so detached from your emotions in your swimmingpool of nihilism).

I think there are many dudes who follow Leo, who are probably somewhat awakened in Mind, but still lacks the Heart.

The Heart is the toughest part, especially because the Awakening of the Mind in a sense hinders it (and in another sense doesn't, of course). 

I don't even know if it's possible to awaken in Heart without Mind first. I did Mind first (gradually over the past 5 years, while my Heart finally exploded ~1 month ago). I think Mind is an infinite spectrum, whereas I see Heart as more black/white, but that just how it felt to me).

When you have awakened in both mind and heart you do express yourself freely, but with one important rule always in mind: "The Law of Oneness" (you know conceptually, intuitively and emotionally that all other human beings are you, so of course you won't hurt them, as hurting them is 100% equal to hurting "yourself".)  Again, if you were only awakened in mind, you could per definition still not express yourself freely (due to ego), and if you were only awakened in heart, you could per definition still hurt others/yourself, since you lacked understanding (you *FEEL* as a no-self-God, but you don't really understand what's going on). 

This is why it is so important to try to awaken both parts. Of course theory and books and videos from masters (Leo, Eckhart, Alan Watts, Spira, Matt Kahn) are VERY important in regards to awakening of both, especially the Mind. But the Heart can ultimately only be awakened with direct experience. Even Awakening of the Mind requires direct experience (just not in the same ultimate way), or it at least helps a lot.

The deep mystical thing about the direct experience needed for the awakening of the Heart, is exactly that: what is it that is needed to awaken the Heart? I can describe conceptually what is needed, but even that misses the point entirely LOL (cos it's not conceptual).

It is sort of inherently mystical. As if it is pre-determined by Intelligent Love which characters that will awaken the Heart, and which that won't. 
As if whatever method that worked for you only worked for you because it was predetermined. I.e. I used psychedelics, primarily Ayahuasca and 2C-B, to awaken my heart, but to say that I was awakened BECAUSE of them is not nessecarily true. There are probably countless people who have done AYahuasca and 2C-B without ever having woken up in Heart. 

Psychedelics are obviously just tools put into the dream my Me/You/God/Love for a very specific purpose. Just like everything else by the way. Psychedelics work for some, and for some it does not. However, even for those where it does not work, it really does still seem to just have plain healing properities in regards to regular self-development and treating mental illness. It's like psychedelics are a built in Self-Correction tool. Of course they can also do damage/be misused. Of course.

It obviously happened to WaveInTheOcean without WaveInTheOcean's doing. TO even talk about WITO's doing is falsehood. There is only one Self. The Self's doing is all there is. Which is the same as Love's doing, God's doing, etc etc etc. Oneness Oneness Oneness. So yeah i didn't have anything to do with it. It just happened. That's also how it felt during the peak of my last 2CB-trip. It didn't come from me. It was synchronicity upon synchronicity upon synchronicity to infinity. All life is of course 100% synchronicities, cos it's God's dream! However, during that 2C-B trip that was only what I saw clearly: only synchronicites. Only intelligent loving 'doings' is possible in this dream. Even what we outwardly perceive to be 'bad' is 100% good. Of course.

<3

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Great song right?

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Now what is the name of the song? 

The name of the song is obvious (it's right in front of your eyes), but you miss it. Why?

Due to unconscious pattern-recognition built into you.

"Ego" works in pretty much exactly the same way. And it is - more or less - the same mechanisms that hinders everyone from remembering that they are the Absolute.

Ego = social survival mechanisms. 

Ego isn't a thing. Of course it's dream. But relatively speaking, we could say that 'ego' is all that in your avatar-character (person/separate self) that makes you believe that you are that character, i.e. a separate self, a human being, a poor 'little me' stuck in an external, physical, cold world that could not care less about my existence, which scientists say is a biological accident.

Ego is all that energy and tension inside you, that makes you insist (at least emotionally) that you exist as a separate self that will eventually die.

[ivankiss]

@WaveInTheOcean You had me... Then you lost me. Then you had me again.... And then lost me again ? Lots of circling in what you said... But I appreciate your input. 

And cool song, indeed.

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To answer the question 'What would Love do?' ...as I believe it is relevant to the discussion that went down...:

'Love would honor the experiencer'

And that's something many overlook on their path. Or better yet; they do the complete opposite. Which is blaming and demonizing the 'part' of themselves that they believe is in their way towards enlightenment or liberation. That is the danger in just mindlessly following others' guidance - without stopping for a moment to listen to our hearts. 

And that is why I recognize flaws in most spiritual teachings.

Edited June 25, 2020 by ivankiss

[Member]

@ivankiss Hope you don't mind me telling this but your profile picture scares me. You look like a shadow person

[ivankiss]

@Member Haha! Oopsy ? It's just Light doing its thing ??

[WaveInTheOcean]

29 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

@WaveInTheOcean You had me... Then you lost me. Then you had me again.... And then lost me again ? Lots of circling in what you said... But I appreciate your input. 

yeah sorry for derailing lol. im just talking to myself =D 

Well, to talk about the absolute you have to per definition talk in circles. Same even goes for talking about the relative.

Everything we say with words is circles around circles around circles to infinity. Sure, relatively speaking, some circles are more expanded/embracing than others (higher levels of consciousness, hello)

Reality has nothing to do with what we can say with words. Words are just pointers. Don't look at the finger. Look at the moon.

Edited June 25, 2020 by WaveInTheOcean

[WaveInTheOcean]

Also, just a note to myself:

I'd say even the awakening of the heart is a spectrum. Of course some people are better at freely expressing themselves than others. I just had a major breakthrough upwards in this spectrum during my awakening. Like the glass got so full of love that it spilled over. But it's still a spectrum, and I can still improve my free expression.

It's interesting to talk about what free expression even means.
Free expression of what? Of yourself? Well, there is no self. So of what?

Of course it's free expression of the absolute (i.e. Love/God). That's all. Everything that happens from all people -- even Trump -- are (in the Absolute Sense): Free Expressions of Love. You don't even have to say 'Free', because Love is per definition Free if it's absolute.

However, the difference, relatively speaking, between the free expression of Jesus and Trump, is that:

- Jesus is Love's Free Expression as it is --- i.e.: no-self, freedom, love.

- Trump is Love's Free Expression of "the relative opposite of love/freedom": i.e. ego, limitation, hate.  --- But even that is Love, of course.

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Also (this is, as everything I write, just purely a conceptual framework for understanding what is happening within myself btw): of course when you combine the awakening of the heart and the awakening of the mind together, there happens something beautiful that is not just the sum of these two indiviudal conceputal parts. You get ACTUAL Freedom. Actual Liberation. Actual Love. Actual no-limits. An actual almost constant feeling of there being no self. An actual almost constant feeling of Oneness. You understand who you are and you express yourself freely, not just either.

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Now, I'm getting very selfish, but I can still only laugh at the people who blindly believe that enlightenment is equal to no ego. That's the worst nihilistic, awakening of the mind-only-trap, you can fall into believe.

See: there is nothing wrong with ego. We are all Love in human-person-avatar-form. This implies that there will certain perferences (and you could call preferences a symptom of ego), i.e. there is still ego-energy.

The difference between 'bad ego' and 'good ego' is simple: Consciousness. The more conscious you are of ego, i.e. yourself and all your sneaky selfish tricks, the more you can express yourself freely and the more you know yourself = the more "enligthened" you are, i.e. on a higher plance of conscious you are. 

Also notice this: you only understand something if you uncondtionally love it / accept it. As long as there is a tiny bit of resistance towards something, a tiny bit of 'hate', non-acceptance: then you don't understand it either.

Understanding = Love , and this is where my conceptual framework of dividing awakening into heart and mind collapses (just like all dualities must).

<3

Notice, that EVERY single time you make an assesment about something, i.e. I like blueberries more than raspberries, you are - in a sense - being egoic. What does ego mean in latin? "I" . As long as you still produce sentences, written or oral out of your mouth, you are working from an 'I'-perspective, i.e. from ego. 

Let me repeat: from a spiritual/awakening/enligthenment/liberation-perspective, all that matters here is whether you you are conscious of this or not. Conscious of all ego inside you? Enlightened. Still unconscious of something? Not fully unenlightened.

Can you ever be fully conscious of all the ego inside you? Of course not. The mouth can never fully eat itself. The eyes can never fully see themselves. That's great. It'd be boring if you could know everything.

So in that sense, enlightenment can be viewed as a never ending path. Especially also when you start defining yourself ( "I" / ego) as not just what is insider your bag of skin, but also as everything around you. Your thirst for understanding )(LOVE!) becomes infinite, and you can always understand more, love more <3

Understanding = Love

So all the dudes on this forum who keep making assesments about whether x or y is awakened or not: It's all fine, there are no problems with it.  EXCEPT if you unconsciously think you can make such judgments without being egoistical.

Look, I do it too. I'm egoistical as fuck. My enlightenment has in a sense made me more egoistical. Ego is going amok. It's just loving, conscious ego. I know I am nothing and everything at the same time. I know if I call you a moron I'm calling myself a moron. But therefore I'd still like to call myself a moron sometimes.

Also yes, everything I just wrote here are concepts and are egoistical concepts. Concepts can per definition NOT not be egoistical. Everything ever written on this forum by anyone has been written from an ego-standpoint, from "I".

But no problem. As long as you love it. As long as you are conscious of it. Heck, even if you are deeply stuck in ego/hate/limitation/depression and make unconscious projections 24/7: even that is Love, that is fine too... absolutely speaking... relatively speaking it's pretty bad I must admit.  <3 

Ultimately, Ego = God . No difference. Non-duality 101, you know? <3 

Also realize, everything I just wrote here, whether you vibe with it or not: It's nonsense. It's meaningless words repating themselves, and you thinking you understand or not, agree or disagree. 

I love you <3

Edited June 25, 2020 by WaveInTheOcean

[WaveInTheOcean]

"Love would honor the experiencer'"

exactly, because, ultimately, who is the experiencer? (i.e the one who believes he sees the world from a separate isolated self) ??? It's Love itself. (= God/Consciousness)

So yes, there is no point in hating the ego. No point at all. Love it instead. But it is hard to Love from the view of a separate self, so we are stuck in a catch 22 here. So in that sense, of course, there can even be a point in hating yourself. I guess. Maybe not, lol. Can you lovingly hate yourself? I think you can. That's what God does, a lot, it seems around the globe.

I maybe mean he lovingly not-lovingly hate himself hahaha.. 

Some good quotes for ya all. Some say they are from Jesus these ones, i dont know tho:
 

Quote

 

All paradoxes, the separation, and all opposites, exist only in the divided mind, based on subject-object-relations. They dissolve as soon as they are looked upon from the whole’s and the Heavenly Self’s level.

The path that does not lead to the heart is an illusion.

The heavenly peaks one is capable of reaching are proportional to the unacknowledged abyss, one has the courage to permeate down to.

All paths sooner or late return to their starting point.

In the same way that ‘Heaven’ is ‘just’ a state, ‘Hell’ just means that you are not in your true self – i.e. that you have missed yourself. Aim again and see if you can hit it next time.

You do not own something, if you are not capable of giving it to others.

Pain is the messenger, and the message is: Wake up!

Only that which is made conscious of can be transcended.

Only that which is loved can be understood.

 

 

[ivankiss]

6 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

"Love would honor the experiencer'"

exactly, because, ultimately, who is the experiencer? (i.e the one who believes he sees the world from a separate isolated self) ??? It's Love itself. (= God/Consciousness)

So yes, there is no point in hating the ego. No point at all. Love it instead. But it is hard to Love from the view of a separate self, so we are stuck in a catch 22 here. 
 

What does 'ego' mean to you, exactly? 

Not all egos are the same. Would you agree?

Someone who has an inferior ego structure will have a completely different path of deconstruction or surrendering from someone who has a superior / narcissistic ego structure. I think that is a very important thing to be noted.

That is why a certain spiritual path might work perfectly fine for one person and not work at all for another. Not only that, but it can also be damaging and it can further perpetuate unconscious ways of being.

Love is the one doing the loving - so to speak. The 'ego' does not have to do a thing. I would describe the process as 'coming back' for yourself. Or 'looking down' on yourself from Heaven - so to speak. That is Love honoring the experiencer. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by ivankiss

[WaveInTheOcean]

18 hours ago, ivankiss said:

What does 'ego' mean to you, exactly? 

Not all egos are the same. Would you agree?

Someone who has an inferior ego structure will have a completely different path of deconstruction or surrendering from someone who has a superior / narcissistic ego structure. I think that is a very important thing to be noted.

That is why a certain spiritual path might work perfectly fine for one person and not work at all for another. Not only that, but it can also be damaging and it can further perpetuate unconscious ways of being.

Love is the one doing the loving - so to speak. The 'ego' does not have to do a thing. I would describe the process as 'coming back' for yourself. Or 'looking down' on yourself from Heaven - so to speak. That is Love honoring the experiencer. 

Ego means a lot of different things to me in different contexts. It actually depends on who I'm talking to a lot as well, hehe. Cos I'm very much aware of the meaningless'ness of all words (i.e. their illusory nature), i.e. that all discussions (oral or written) are games, language games.

Anyway, if I could myself objectively define what all words meant, without giving any fuck to anyone else' thoughts on the matter (which you cannot do, but let's pretend) then the word 'ego' would mean this to me:
 

Quote

'ego' is all those conscious/unconcious (mostly unconcious)  energy-mechanisms   "inside"  'you'  that keeps on telling 'you'  ---  either emotionally, conceptually, or worst: both  ---  that 'you' exist as a separate 'self' living in an independent, external world.

'you' = <Love/The Self/God/Consciousness/The Universe/Nothingness/The Absolute/Etc.>

'self' = <person/body/mind/human being/conceptual self>

If you can become conscious of all ego inside you, you will realize that the person, you think you are, is: game/play/illusory/a character.

The personality/selfhood/human body/mind in itself is NOT the "problem" here. Thoughts and emotions are in themselves NOT the problem. 

The "problem" is identification with thoughts and feelings, believing that they tell something absolutely true about your true nature. They don't. They are play.

The goal is NOT to remove ego. The goal is to BECOME CONSCIOUS of ego and loving it.

Love = Understanding = Becoming More Conscious = Transcending = Letting Go = Accepting = Being

If your goal is to "remove something", then you are in a process of: nihilism, self-hate, seriousness, denial, resistance, depression (the opposite of free expression), 'holding on', 'attachment' (you are so attached to yourself; you take yourself so seriously that you believe something should be changed about you))  ... which is no good for you.

Your goals should always be: More Love, More Understanding, More Consciousness, More Dissolving/Transcending (NOT REMOVING ANYTHING, LET IT BE AS IT IS!:D), Letting Go.

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"Not all egos are the same. Would you agree?"

In regards to the above definition, I just made, I'd say both yes and no. The essence/nature of ego is always the same: tension and holding on emotionally/conceptually to the idea of being 'a poor little me' stuck in an external cold world.

However, the way it functions/appears within different persons is different. Ego/The Devil is sneaky as FUCK and can take on many, many forms.

Enneagram type 5's ego fixation is greediness towards understanding: we want more, more, more. More concepts, more understanding. Never getting fullfilled, never thinking we are good enough to interact in the world.

All types have different ego fixation. I think Enneagram is very, very, very useful and interesting, obviously as you can see :-) The ego fixation is each core type's way of protecting themselves against their deep truamatic feelings: i.e. their feelings of separateness/mortality. Paradoxically, the holding on to 'protection', i.e. the holding on to 'the ego fixation' is exactly what creates the feelings of separateness and mortality. So what do we got here? A self-fulfilling loop that never ends; unless you manage to step out of it/let go (hello meditation, hello psychedelics).

............

Anyway, not all persons are the same, obviously. We are all strange, unique and different. That's Love. That's Good. Personality is not a problem. Personality is not ego. Personality is -- like everything else -- an expression of the Intelligence/Infinity/Oneness of Love.

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"Someone who has an inferior ego structure will have a completely different path of deconstruction or surrendering from someone who has a superior / narcissistic ego structure. I think that is a very important thing to be noted."

Sure, we have different ego-fixations, and therefore we "need" different "things" in order to get out of these self-fulfilling loops. However, the essence/nature of every loop is the same: resistance and holding on to the idea of being a separate self stuck in an external world, especially with emotions "that tell you that it is true" (it is not: the external world is just as much you, as your body-mind/persona is you; i.e. Oneness is what is).
 

Quote

From wiki:  The persona, for Swiss psychiatrist Carl Jung, was the social face the individual presented to the world—"a kind of mask, designed on the one hand to make a definite impression upon others, and on the other to conceal the true nature of the individual".

"That is why a certain spiritual path might work perfectly fine for one person and not work at all for another. Not only that, but it can also be damaging and it can further perpetuate unconscious ways of being."

Agreed. We must all follow our own way to truth.

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"Love is the one doing the loving - so to speak. The 'ego' does not have to do a thing. I would describe the process as 'coming back' for yourself. Or 'looking down' on yourself from Heaven - so to speak. That is Love honoring the experiencer."

Agreed <3  Looking down on yourself from Heaven  -  I really dig that! When you can manage to do that, at all times, you are awakened (in my selfish book:D) <3

[WaveInTheOcean]

See all types' ego fixation here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enneagram_of_Personality#Nine_types and ponder about what the words (i.e.  "resentment", "vengeance", "objectification") is trying to point to within you, i.e. find out which type you are:> ... The words chosen for each types' ego fixation is something I have no doubt the persons behind this theory has put A LOT of thought into. It is not arbitrary, but it is also close to impossible to describe it with words, especially only one word.

Edited June 26, 2020 by WaveInTheOcean

[ivankiss]

@WaveInTheOcean Nice! Thanks ? 

It's important do identify and understand these aspects of ourselves. Otherwise the 'work' we do can be very sloppy and not that effective or efficient, at all. Counter-productive, even.

To me; Ego is the entanglement of different aspects of God, if you will. Thoughts, sensations, views... 

I'd describe the process of 'deconstruction' as an unwinding of those aspects. In my opinion; it's simply Light 'finding its way' to Source. Retracing, even. It 'begins' and 'ends' at the same place and the same time; here and now. The more entangled - the more 'time' it's needed for it to unwind.

In that sense; this process is happening in reverse. Or backwards.

Another way I like describing 'ego' is; A lag effect.

Also; Simply God being sleepy and in need of a nap ?

[phoenix666]

whenever I ask myself the question what would love do?  a sense of relief overcomes me. and out of that deep relaxation and surrender, love arises. I love it! Matt is such a gem <3

[ivankiss]

@phoenix666 I feel the same ? It might as well be the most important question one could ever ask. 

❤

 

[Nahm]

@ivankiss

An eight string!? Man you are not messin around!  

[ivankiss]

@Nahm It's a whole new world ? 

 

[Nahm]

@ivankiss ?

 

[ivankiss]

@Nahm Lovely ?

[Waken]

Matt's words helped me out greatly once. I was walking around with many dismissive teachings in my mind (like Jed Mckenna's) and my mind was starting to give me lot's of suffering at times. The mind would just start spinning into anxieties, worries and frustration. So once I laid crying on bed with lots of hopelessness and a thought appeared about watching Matt Khan (who I considered too soft before that), I watched him and it was greatly healing and a big relief from these dismissive teachings. For me it put many things right. Loving the experiencer is a great idea of him. If we aren't going towards love, then what the hell are we doing? ❤️

The question 'what would love do?' is the same/similar question as given in the book Conversation with God: "At all breaking points in life there is one question to ask: what would love do now?"
 

Edited June 27, 2020 by Waken