Resources For INTP's

[integral]

2 hours ago, nitramadas said:

If we say that INTP = perfect example of Yellow (if healthy).  

And that INTJ is like INTP, but more judging and serious.

What happens when an Orange INTJ turns Green, and then Yellow?  Do they continue to judge others the same way?  Do they stay as focused on becoming successful?  What I was saying is that by becoming more Yellow, they tend to also become more INTP.

INTP and INTJ share non of the cognitive functions, they are using different brain regions in combination for sense making. 2 completely different tools designed for different jobs.

Its like comparing a hammer to a screwdriver and saying a hammer becomes a screwdriver when it grows up. They have there own designed use, strengths and weaknesses. To change the way we use our brain is fighting the natural use of the instrument, this causes strain and stress, its not sustainable. For example INTJ are not build for Ti, prolonged use of it is draining and will lead to burn out. 

 

2 hours ago, nitramadas said:

I don't know any Orange INTPs.

2 hours ago, nitramadas said:

"INTJ are/can be ruthlessly open minded" ..in search of solution to a problem.  INTPs don't just stop when they've solved the problem, they remain open minded even after fully completing the task.  Just for the fun of it.  

INTP are consume dominant, Ti-Ne, they are in consume mode all the time, the reward system is designed to do this from birth, this can express it self at any stage, purple and up. 

INTJ is blast dominant, Ni-Te, providing motivation to focus on things the INTP is not interested in. 

All types are wired from brith to take responsibility for a different slice of the tribes survival needs. 

This is not traits of yellow, its traits of the INTP that can express themselves at any stage of development. There is a mix up with the INTPs wiring for the love of learning and yellow.

That INTPs motivation for learning is a value that exists at all spiral stages, its becomes more developed with higher stages. 

There are plenty of orange/green scientists doing orange/green science with models, theorizing, open-minded (in the spiral box), systems... 

Systems thinking happens at orange as well, its just a amateurs play of the instrument. 

 

2 hours ago, nitramadas said:

lol, it's nothing about servitude or doing "the right thing" or anything like that.  Once you've been Green, you just love existence and want to share it.  It's just creating more love in the world.  

Turquoise view everything as a part of there body or oneness, all living and non living things are there children and self. To have the motivation for more children makes little sense.  

 

2 hours ago, nitramadas said:

I don't think it's that they are "weaker at relationships" or lower stage at relationships.  An intellectually inclined Yellow may have less skill at a relationship with a Green than someone at Green.  If there are more Greens than Yellows, the Yellow will be "worse" at relationships.  It's relative.  It's best to figure the stage, and then see how the stage handles each thing, rather than coming up with lots of stages.  Though I do hope to see a 3D SD model one day.  I'm slowly working on one.

Ive seen plenty of orange/green INTP relationships, They have a major self vs tribe imbalance. Causing all the standard miscommunication. They just rationalize it all away, masterfully. 

 

You've placed INTPs on a pedestal or there is a misunderstanding of MBTI, it is not coupled to spiral dynamics. 

Edited November 21, 2020 by integral

[integral]

@nitramadas ok i think this will clear things up:

Yellow is consume dominant. 

INTPs are consume dominant by nature, Ti-Ne, this happens no matter there spiral box. 

So a false connection is being made the all INTPs are yellow,

Also, INTJs that transition into yellow become consume focused, this makes them appear more INTP like. Thats not true, they are just expression yellow values that makes them consume. 

While INTPs are following there nature making them consume, but this does not come from yellow values. They can be at any stage and consume dominantly. 

Edited November 21, 2020 by integral

[nitramadas]

3 minutes ago, integral said:

INTP and INTJ share non of the cognitive functions, they are using different brain regions in combination for sense making. 2 completely different tools designed for different jobs.

Its like comparing a hammer to a screwdriver and saying a hammer becomes a screwdriver when it grows up. They have there own designed use, strengths and weaknesses. To change the way we use our brain is fighting the natural use of the instrument, this causes strain and stress, its not sustainable. For example INTJ are not build for Ti, prolonged use of it is draining and will lead to burn out. 

I just had this exact discussion earlier in this thread.  Yeah, they don't share any of the exact functions, but they share INTx.  That's significant, even if they don't share any functions.  I used to score INTP and INTJ equally as often.  And people often have trouble deciding if they're one or the other.  

Many see the functions and the types as 2 different models, it somehow seems to work.  If someone's INTx, even if their functions are all different, they're introverted, intuitive, and thinking.  According to functions, an INTP would have more in common with ISFJ than INTJ (as ISFJ has every INTP function, just in a different order)  yet, somehow, I know I'll always prefer INTJs over ISFJs.  INTJs are just gonna be smarter 90% of the time, and that makes them more fun to talk to.  An INTP might also find INTJ more intellectual and relatable than ENTP (which shares the top 2 INTP functions but flipped) as INTJ is gonna be thinking for himself (introvert).  

 

3 minutes ago, integral said:

INTP are consume dominant, Ti-Ne, they are in consume mode all the time, the reward system is designed to do this from birth, this can express it self at any stage, purple and up. 

INTJ is blast dominant, Ni-Te, providing motivation to focus on things the INTP is not interested in. 

All types are wired from brith to take responsibility for a different slice of the tribes survival needs. 

Consume mode? Blast mode?  Huh, never heard of such terminology.  

I wonder.. what would you call a TiNe that's become judging? 

Or, what if there are 2 TiNes, one of them is extremely judgemental, focused, and motivated; the other one not at all.  How would you type them?  lol.  Well, suddenly, the functions aren't so important anymore, they don't give you the relevant information.

 

Mark: "Hi, I'm Mark! I'm the perceiving, non-judging type!"

Mark: *judges you*

You: "I thought you're the non-judging type!"

Mark: "Yep!"

You: *Does some research*

You: "Hmm, all checks out.  Guess non-judging types can be judging after all!"

 

3 minutes ago, integral said:

Turquoise view everything as a part of there body, all living and non living things are there child. To have more children makes little sense. 

haha.  That's a funny thing of you to say!  I spend a good amount of time in Turquoise, and it's the least serious stage of them all.  Actions don't need reasons, you just let life happen, and you love it.  That's it.  There's nothing else to it.  It's the process leading up to Turquoise that can be serious, as serious are the fears that are present in every stage below it, whether acknowledged or not.   Turquoists are still human and they have no reason to be a specific way or go against human nature.  They're just not bothered by anything and, so, are completely emotionally open, feeling far more love than any other stage.  If a Turquoist's wife wants kids, why not?  There's no reason to refuse.  And if your kids learn from you, you're helping the world grow up through the actions of your kids.  Spreading your love. 

I really didn't expect you to say that for Turquoise "To have more children makes little sense".. hmm, now that I think back to your earlier posts, it does make sense.  It should've been obvious with the writing style too..  I guess INTPs really can be misleading, initially.  (sorry, just analysing to myself).

 

 

3 minutes ago, integral said:

Ive seen plenty of orange/green INTP relationships, They have a major self vs tribe imbalance. Causing all the standard miscommunication. They just rationalize it all away, masterfully. 

Yeah, stage is important.  May sound discriminatory, but this is no different to "dating in your age group".  Plenty of exceptions, but generally you want to be in a relationship with someone at around the same stage.

[nitramadas]

21 minutes ago, integral said:

.. INTJs that transition into yellow .. appear more INTP ..  just express yellow values that makes them consume. 

So....  INTP = the hungry hungry INTJ?

 

But good to know you agree that INTP behaves more Yellow than INTJ.

 

21 minutes ago, integral said:

While INTPs are following there nature making them consume, but this does not come from yellow values. They can be at any stage and consume dominantly. 

Why do I feel like I'm reading the transcript to a nature documentary..

But yes, of course, any stage can be intellectual.  

Edited November 21, 2020 by nitramadas

[integral]

2 minutes ago, nitramadas said:

I feel like I'm reading the transcription to a nature documentary..

LMAOOO

2 minutes ago, nitramadas said:

But good to know you agree that INTP behaves more like Yellow than INTJ.

17 minutes ago, integral said:

So a false connection is being made the all INTPs are yellow,

Yellow is more then consume, its also strategic thinking that INTJs accel at and many other things. All types accel at some aspect of yellow.

From integral theory there are multiple quadrants and lines of development all happening at different stages of development. All types  are naturally better are some slice of yellow. There are many facets of yellow...

Not sure why the point i made was ignored, the INTPs learning addiction is not equal to yellows learning. INTP learning happens no matter the stage they are in. While yellow learning values happened only when your yellow. 

 

19 minutes ago, nitramadas said:

haha.  That's a funny thing of you to say!  I spend a good amount of time in Turquoise, and it's the least serious stage of them all.  Actions don't need reasons, you just let life happen, and you love it.  That's it.  There's nothing else to it.  It's the process leading up to Turquoise that can be serious, as serious are the fears that are present in every stage below it, whether acknowledged or not.   Turquoists are still human and they have no reason to be a specific way or go against human nature.  They're just not bothered by anything and, so, are completely emotionally open, feeling far more love than any other stage.  If a Turquoist's wife wants kids, why not?  There's no reason to refuse.  And if your kids learn from you, you're helping the world grow up through the actions of your kids.  Spreading your love. 

This makes sense, its possible, but its also STRONGLY GREEN INTP going with the flow behaviour. Are you sure it was Turquoise you where hanging out in or your just an INTP? Also why did you "spend a good amount of time in Turquoise" and not just permanently in turquoise?  Are you saying you went higher? 

 

30 minutes ago, nitramadas said:

Many see the functions and the types as 2 different models, it somehow seems to work.  If someone's INTx, even if their functions are all different, they're introverted, intuitive, and thinking.  According to functions, an INTP would have more in common with ISFJ than INTJ (as ISFJ has every INTP function, just in a different order)  yet, somehow, I know I'll always prefer INTJs over ISFJs.  INTJs are just gonna be smarter 90% of the time, and that makes them more fun to talk to.  An INTP might also find INTJ more intellectual and relatable than ENTP (which shares the top 2 INTP functions but flipped) as INTJ is gonna be thinking for himself (introvert).  

The cognitive functions reveal everything, there is no need for the 2 model system to make sense of this, just dig deeper into the cognitive functions and how they work. For example the order of the functions is critical, INTPs are doing Ti-Ne, ISFJs are doing Si-Fe non stop... so of course you will have nothing in common with them. They are doing the exact thing the INTP is suppressing, there 3rd and 4th function combination. Both types will view each other as "stupid", because the INTP sees there own strengths that the ISFJ lacks and the ISFJ sees there strengths that the INTP lacks. Exactly why people think they are above average, they only see there own strengths and project it onto everyone they see. Everyone believes they are above average intelligence lol... a statistical miracle. lol

 

31 minutes ago, nitramadas said:

I wonder.. what would you call a TiNe that's become judging? 

Or, what if there are 2 TiNes, one of them is extremely judgemental, focused, and motivated; the other one not at all.  How would you type them?  lol.  Well, suddenly, the functions aren't so important anymore, they don't give you the relevant information.

 

MBTI does not directly track personality traits, thats what big 5 does. mbti is tracking cognitive functions, people can have the exact same big 5 score and be using completely different cognitive functions. 

Some one could play sad music on a violin or play that same music on a piano. Big 5 = music, MBTI = instrument. 

 

 

[integral]

1 hour ago, nitramadas said:

I just had this exact discussion earlier in this thread.  Yeah, they don't share any of the exact functions, but they share INTx.  That's significant, even if they don't share any functions.  I used to score INTP and INTJ equally as often.  And people often have trouble deciding if they're one or the other.  

Its possible to identify a type by looking at there body language for 10 seconds. With deeper more nuanced pattern recognition each type spears nothing alike. Its like mistaking a your mother for a giraffe. 

The mistyping is a common issue that goas away once the patterns fully reveal themselves. 

Edited November 21, 2020 by integral

[nitramadas]

13 minutes ago, integral said:

Yellow is more then consume, its also strategic thinking that INTJs accel at and many other things. All types accel at some aspect of yellow.

 

13 minutes ago, integral said:

From integral theory there are multiple quadrants and lines of development all happening at different stages of development. All types  are naturally better are some slice of yellow. There are many facets of yellow...

You mean this?  It's more than a little arbitrary and Ken has a some questionable ideas about SD.  E.g. like a bunch of non-sensical stages above Turquoise.  Morality? Aesthetics? Kinesthetics? You might as well just list like 1000 different things in there.  And it's not like Aesthetics is something everyone's gonna develop.  And then there's 100s of different types of aesthetics.. It should not be be considered as part of the model.  Even if you decided you're gonna track the SD of all your hobbies, how is that even SD anymore?  It's just a completely arbitrary ranking system.  Each SD stage has a complex set of connotations.  E.g. Yellow is multi-perspectival and is able to understand all the stages below it.  How tf would you apply that to the evolution of your ..K/D ratio in CoD Cold War?  Sure you could rank it some way, but you couldn't just apply stages with their connotations.  The SD stages have evolved to have a primary definition of "level of awareness", at least imo, but not just that, all the connotations too.

13 minutes ago, integral said:

Not sure why the point i made was ignored,

Not sure what I missed..

 

13 minutes ago, integral said:

the INTPs learning addiction is not equal to yellows learning. INTP learning happens no matter the stage they are in. While yellow learning values happened only when your yellow. 

Yeah, through INTP thinking habits tend to not be dissimilar to Yellow's. 

INTP = tries to understand the big picture, how things work just for its own sake.

Yellow =  tries to understand the big picture, how things work just for its own sake.  

 

Except that INTP on its own makes no guarantees of objectivity/wisdom/quality/multi-perspective/etc.

Yellow, in every personality, guarantees:  Seeing many perspectives, spiral wizardry, theorizing, intuition, making connections between seemingly unrelated things, seeing the big picture, etc.

 

13 minutes ago, integral said:

This makes sense, its possible, but its also STRONGLY GREEN INTP going with the flow behaviour.

hah, that's pretty funny.  Confirms my suspicions from previous reply.  

Don't forget Ken's best SD catchphrase:  "Transcend and include". 

I included Green years ago.  To those who've not yet gotten past the GreenGate™ / GreenBarrier, anything past Green will remind them of Green.  So, 2 stages up tends to look like your own stage, e.g. Yellow look like Orange to Orange, Turquoise looks like Green to Green..  But since the, aforementioned, Ken'sLaw is in effect: 

To Orange, Yellow will seem the same as itself + Green.  Yellow is like a more refined Orange, so it's easy for Orange to not see anything different and just see itself when seeing a Yellow's Yellowness, but the the Green halfway between Orange and Yellow is not as easy to ignore and stands out.  Potentially confusing the Orange, not knowing just what the hell it is they're seeing.

If an Orange sees a Green, it's simple, as they can brush them off as either a Blue or a Green, nothing of interest.  But a Yellow, to Orange, just seems like a confusing Orange, but maybe still an Orange.

 

To Green, Turquoise looks like itself, another Green.  Turquoise is like a more refined Green, so Greens often mistake Turquoises for themselves.  But that Yellow in between Green and Turquoise stands out.  The only way Green can describe this Yellow thing is as "Orange", as they've not yet learned the difference between Orange and Yellow.  "H-Hey! I was expecting to see Green [Turquoise], what is this.. Light-Orange? [Yellow] thing in the way?"

 

13 minutes ago, integral said:

Are you sure it was Turquoise you where hanging out in or your just an INTP?   Why did you "spend a good amount of time in Turquoise" and not just permanently in turquoise?  Are you saying you went higher? 

lol.  Yeah, I'm sure.  I've had a bunch of mini-enlightenment experiences and have done psychedelics dozens of times.  I know what Turquoise feels like.  In response to your next question:  Yes, they actually do work if you're bordering Tier 2. 

I've had periods of weeks where I seemed to be defaulting to Turquoise.  With and without psychedelics.  And I feel I can drop into it (or what I can only describe as Turquoise) almost whenever I want.  That involves dropping all ego and most of what I consider my "humanity".  It can take a few minutes, and my subconscious has to also be in agreement with the decision.  I don't do it often though, as whenever I do I can't interact with anyone for maybe an hour.  This also tends to bring on intense euphoria at the back of my mouth; I get an intense urge to spasm/roll on the floor; intense urge to shout with all I have with that euphoria feeling.  Just thinking about it now I have to be careful not to bring it on by accident..  

 

 

13 minutes ago, integral said:

The cognitive functions reveal everything, there is no need for the 2 model system to make sense of this, just dig deeper into the cognitive functions and how they work.

They don't reveal everything.  Like in the example I gave, if it's called a judging type, but it's not a judging type, that's a problem.  

Like it or not, it's evolved as 2 separate models. 

1. "Basically meaningless names that refer to functions" e.g. Ixxx = introverted extravert who's an introverted extravert when condition x½³ = true, but when N J, x+=x³..— might as well just give it a whole new name.  It's a mess.

2. Ixxx = More introverted than extroverted.  xNxx = more intuitive than sensing. xxTx = more reliant on thinking than feeling.  xxxp = more exploration focused than achievement focused

 

Years ago, when I first discovered MBTI, I just assumed there's only system 2 like everyone else, and rightly so, ambiguity shouldn't be allowed, that's the assumption I expect everyone to have made upon first discovering MBTI, that's the intuitive way it should work, after all.  I had to research Socionics in depth before discovering the 4 letters are pretty much meaningless for telling you the functions, unless you've memorized the code.  The weird thing is:  Using system 2, my accuracy is still extremely high.  I am more I than E, more N than S, more T than F, more P than J.  Then try to figure it out by functions, and I get the exact same result. Also, I've noticed, every single S type bores me (compared to their N counterparts).  Every F type has that specific F vibe.  Every J type has that J vibe..  I sometimes check the functions, and somehow I'm always right using a system that, supposedly, shouldn't work.  

 

13 minutes ago, integral said:

For example the order of the functions is critical, INTPs are doing Ti-Ne, ISFJs are doing Si-Fe non stop... so of course you will have nothing in common with them. 

You didn't like how I compared INTP to INTJ as they "have no functions in common", so I gave an example of a type with every single INTP function, just in a different order.  Although the priorities are different, they should still be able to understand one another, right?  Well that doesn't work.

The other example I gave sharing the two strongest functions, sure they're flipped, but how many types, if any, would be more similar?  They should at least understand one another, right?  NeTi vs TiNe, they both use the Ti and the Ne functions extensively, right?  Some degree of mutual understanding?  Well, no.  And TiSe is even worse than those two, being heavily Sensing.  So who would I have something in common with?  

ime, it's been INTx types, yet, according to the functions, that's impossible.. 

 

 

13 minutes ago, integral said:

 Exactly why people think they are above average, they only see there own strengths and project it onto everyone they see. Everyone believes they are above average intelligence lol... a statistical miracle. lol

Umm, F, S, and E types are gonna have a weaker intellect.  Can you really deny that? 

Ok, thinking types are gonna be better at thinking, can everyone agree that's just an indisputable fact?  Would it be an insult to the thinking types to say that the feeling types are better at feeling AND thinking (which they don't even engage in as much)?

S vs N:  Depends if you value understanding and seeing the big picture as more valuable than being good with attention to detail.  It's really down to lab technician / scientist / mechanic / data analyst  vs  CEO / revolutionary scientist / car designer / revolutionary data analyst / genius..

I vs E:  Do you come up with ideas yourself and see future trends before they even happen?  Or do you see what's popular, bounce ideas off of others, and decide on the outcome based on people's responses?

I hope you enjoyed my completely unbiased compassion, may it help inform your opinions.

 

 

 

Quote

MBTI does not directly track personality traits, thats what big 5 does. mbti is tracking cognitive functions, people can have the exact same big 5 score and be using completely different cognitive functions.  Some one could play sad music on a violin or play that same music on a piano. Big 5 = music, MBTI = instrument. 

lmao.  Did you forget it's called "16 Personalities"?  Big 5 is basically useless, if I told you someone's Big 5 results, what would you know about him?  You might feel more/less confident approaching him, but that's not really anything..

[lmfao]

9 hours ago, integral said:

MBTI does not directly track personality traits, thats what big 5 does. mbti is tracking cognitive functions, people can have the exact same big 5 score and be using completely different cognitive functions. 

Some one could play sad music on a violin or play that same music on a piano. Big 5 = music, MBTI = instrument. 

 

6 hours ago, nitramadas said:

lmao.  Did you forget it's called "16 Personalities"?  Big 5 is basically useless, if I told you someone's Big 5 results, what would you know about him?  You might feel more/less confident approaching him, but that's not really anything..

@nitramadas I hope your understanding isn't shaped by websites like 16personalities.com. Because that ain't MBTI

That site is literally Big Five, they literally admit it on their website. 

---

When you so blatantly dismiss how the cognitive functions work I question how well you understand MBTI at all. 

An INTJ will not evolve into an INTP. I've met many INTJs and many INTPs. These dichotomies of Ti vs Te, Ne vs Ni... aren't arbitrary, just because they're both thinking and intuitive. 

The differences between introverted and extroverted attitudes of S, N, T and F are quite stark. 

 

Is it meaningless that INTP and INTJ share three letters? No. Are there some very loose commonalities between all thinkers? Yes. But the differences are huge, and you'd understand that if you knew the theory better. An extra layer to what I've said so far is that the thinking (and intuition) functions for both types are in different positions in their stack. 

I mentioned this in my previous post, but you seem to have ignored it. 

 

You asked "what happens if an INTP becomes judging". This whole "judging" business was an invention that Jung never stated for the sake of constructing function stacks in MBTI. The assertion of a P vs J as a scale isn't MBTI.

P vs J is about whether you introvert or extrovert your perceiving and decision making functions. As a heuristic for a newbie you can correlate it to conscientiousness, but that's not the same as causation or its definition. 

---

Whilst personality is often fixed, I'm optimistic and open to the possibility it can change as well. But in regards to all you've mentioned, 

1) The personality change needn't be expressed through a change in MBTI category (since this is just one lens. )

2) A single unit of change needn't happen along any of these 4 scales/axes in XXXX, because XXXX being a 4 scales was never the right way to view it. XXXX is a code for function stacks. 

 

I don't think about mbti much in my day to day thinking because I don't think it captures anything meaningfully mechanics wise, and it might just be a categorisation of outward correlates that don't reveal anything substantial. Sort of like if a child categorised everything in reality by what physical color it was.

Hence if you're interested in personality growth and etc I wouldn't think about it in these terms. 

____________________________________________

Also, at the start of conversation, you ended up trying to make a lot of judgements and guesses about me rather than engaging in the topic of conversation. Projecting whatever you did about spiral dynamics. And I've seen a few of your posts elsewhere. 

It seems like an unconscious mentality where you're comparing yourself to others too much. Spiral dynamics is this standard for worth and so your mind is obsessed with knowing your own position on it, and also knowing where other people are on it.

The same way many people are always comparing how materially rich they are with each others, using fads like shoes, phones and cars as proxies for self worth. Or like a kid in high school comparing his test scores with other kids. 

 

The real truth of the matter behind what I'm saying though, is that I just dislike you. The rest is probably just an extra layer of deception. 

Edited November 21, 2020 by lmfao

[integral]

@nitramadas We can go back and forward like this for a while, maybe lets try a different method. From what i see there are misunderstanding of all models mentioned and your using your powerful mind to masterfully rationalize your beliefs, running circles around everything. There is even the misconception of waking up and growing up, that turquoise is about mystical experiences.

Dig deeper into the models. Deciding that you see the flaws of these models in premature, your seeing flaws in your understanding.

Start here tell me what you think.

https://www.objectivepersonality.com/home

Go over integral theory again... realized that you do not accel at all quadrants and that what you believe is intelect is just a one narrow set of multiple intelegences.

Words like thinking and feeling are over generalizations. 

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2020 by integral

[Carl-Richard]

Noam Chomsky illustrates the difference between Judging and Perceiving types (INFJ criticizing ENTP):

 

[Yog]

On 11/19/2020 at 1:34 AM, Shin said:

Together ?

There is no together with an Intj.

There is social distancing debate ?

This could be us, but you:

Or this:




Btw thought I would share this.
I can say the INTJ part of it is extremely accurate.
I feel the INTP explanation is on spot as well.

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by Yog

[nitramadas]

On 21/11/2020 at 1:08 PM, lmfao said:

 

@nitramadas I hope your understanding isn't shaped by websites like 16personalities.com. Because that ain't MBTI

..

When you so blatantly dismiss how the cognitive functions work I question how well you understand MBTI at all. 

You seem to be forgetting what I said.  iirc, you yourself said you go by the "vibe" to figure out the type.  The vibe isn't the function-based model, it's its own thing.  Trying to make everything fit to the functions isn't some "true" way to type.  Just like language evolves, so do models and everything else.  Regardless how it was originally intended to be used, people have learned to make use of the 4 letter system; now it's a coherent model of its own.  If someone can reliably make use of this "misunderstanding" of the original model, it's valid.  Whether they can be considered to coexist as part of the same overarching model is a whole other discussion, but to quickly determine if someone's more sensing or intuiting it can be useful.

I'll also point out that there is a need for such a model.  Psychological models are, generally, too esoteric for the general population; a low barrier to entry is important.  

You seem to hold bias against 16personalities.com, believing that the more obscure, lesser-known models are inherently superior.  ALL models are still highly theoretical and young; discriminating like this isn't helpful.  And no, my understanding isn't "shaped by 16personalities.com" it is, however, influenced by relevant data I've accumulated over the years from all sorts of sources.  There's value in everything, and any model that's coherent is worth investigating.  If 16personalities is able to model people consistently, it's not without value.

Did I dismiss how functions work?  I was just making a simple point that the fact the INTJ & INTP types don't share any functions doesn't necessarily mean anything; and the fact they are both INTx may hold more weight than whatever your reasoning for incompatibility was.  The more detail you ask for, the lower the probability of being right.  I identify strongly with "INTP" as I identify with what those letters stand for, as well as the MBTI descriptions (& the hundreds of personal descriptions) I've read.  I also identify with the MBTI functions of INTP.  BUT.. I identify with every description of INTp too, even though according to the functions I should be an INTj.  (Which, if I was , I'd be an INTj-Ne, which I thought for a while, but then remembered that a while back I decided to ignore the trite advice of INTP to INTj conversion.)  

What I'm saying is, human understanding of psychology isn't advanced enough to pin point functions to that degree of accuracy.  When you consider the fact that the Socionics system is superior, yet the MBTI system also seems valid, and then that Socionics introduces two subtypes of different levels each, and that there are other interpretations of subtypes, and that you'd have to take into account how the functions from MBTI would impact your results, and which system is more worthy of being given bigger weight in the final conclusion.. Do you somehow combine them?  Throw one out?  How did you decide that this version of this near identical dichotomy is superior than that of MBTI's?   It would take 10000+ words for me to make a short, comprehensive analysis, taking into account every model and their subjective interpretations to give an adequate answer.  Yet you're so quick to decide I simply "don't understand the system".  There is no definitive system..  not yet. 

I understand the functions well enough. Maybe you're not aware, but there is no universally accepted interpretation of I vs E or J vs P.. The systems have many subtle differences between them.  It's not like there's anything special about MBTI functions, they're about as reliable as the 4-letter-only system, just more ambitious and take 100x longer to properly learn.  

On 21/11/2020 at 1:08 PM, lmfao said:

 

@nitramadas 

That site is literally Big Five, they literally admit it on their website. 

Huh? How is your "openness" / "agreeableness" / etc. the same as MBTI?  Are you trying to say they're run by the same company or something?

 

 

On 21/11/2020 at 1:08 PM, lmfao said:

 

@nitramadas An INTJ will not evolve into an INTP

Ugh.. Did you end up taking that literally?!  You see, types are extremely unlikely to change.  So INTJ will not evolve into an INTP, correct.  BUT, if you read between the lines a little.. someone who matches the description of "goal focused; judging; quick to reach a conclusion; has strong fixed opinions about everything" may becomes less so.  A stereotypical INTJ can become less stereotypical.  In other words, more in line with the behavior commonly associated with INTP.

 

 

On 21/11/2020 at 1:08 PM, lmfao said:

 

@nitramadas These dichotomies of Ti vs Te, Ne vs Ni... aren't arbitrary, just because they're both thinking and intuitive. 

The differences between introverted and extroverted attitudes of S, N, T and F are quite stark. 

Did I say they were arbitrary?  I actually don't recall..  But yes, in a way they are.  There are a number of different ways you could divide up cognitive functions, though I think this may be a Yellow level ability..  (Radical relativity / multi-perspectival-intuition).  A very rough example:

There's the left, logical brain; there's the right, creative brain.

^ That's a cognitive function model.  A very very simple one, but if there's nothing else, it does a good job.

 

You have 4 brains:  The head; the heart; the stomach; the..

^ Can you imagine someone ever reducing the human body to just those 4 parts?  Any reason they would do that?

 

Slightly more advanced and less common:

 

The 5 Types of imagination:

Centred;  Uncentred;  Referenced;  Fixed;  Fired

This was then developed into further sub-categories of:

Strongly or Weakly Centred/Referenced/Fixed

And Quickly or Slowly Fired.  Uncentred is just its own, self-explaining type.  Imagination is always either centred or uncentred, and can have any combination of the other types.  Can you figure out what each type might mean?

 

 

On 21/11/2020 at 1:08 PM, lmfao said:

 

@nitramadas These dichotomies of Ti vs Te, Ne vs Ni... aren't arbitrary, just because they're both thinking and intuitive. 

The differences between introverted and extroverted attitudes of S, N, T and F are quite stark. 

^ a quote to slow you down..  So did you figure it out?  Of course, I just made all that up.  It's all complete BS.  Except it's not.  You could legitimately make use of that BS model I just made.  If you couldn't think of a use for each and every one of those types of imagination.. I'm sorry..

 

 

 

You've got.. a low IQ.  

Some random text for.. reasons.

On 21/11/2020 at 1:08 PM, lmfao said:

 

@nitramadas Is it meaningless that INTP and INTJ share three letters? No. Are there some very loose commonalities between all thinkers? Yes. But the differences are huge, and you'd understand that if you knew the theory better. An extra layer to what I've said so far is that the thinking (and intuition) functions for both types are in different positions in their stack. 

I mentioned this in my previous post, but you seem to have ignored it. 

 

^ a quote to slow you down.  To all the lurkers reading this.. That above.. was a joke.  No need to report me..

 

Erm.. D-Did you even study intertype relationships?  The existence of identical, comparative and mirror type relationships disagrees with you.  They're some of the most compatible relationship types and it's all thanks to FunctionSharing™.  The only  types more compatible are dual and semi-dual, but there's only 2 in total.

 

On 21/11/2020 at 1:08 PM, lmfao said:

 

@nitramadas 

You asked "what happens if an INTP becomes judging". This whole "judging" business was an invention that Jung never stated for the sake of constructing function stacks in MBTI. The assertion of a P vs J as a scale isn't MBTI.

P vs J is about whether you introvert or extrovert your perceiving and decision making functions. As a heuristic for a newbie you can correlate it to conscientiousness, but that's not the same as causation or its definition. 

 

That's evolution.  Jung was wrong about many things, you could find many examples if you felt like looking.

 

Depends on your interpretation of "judging".  Pretty accurate ime.

 

On 21/11/2020 at 1:08 PM, lmfao said:

 

@nitramadas Whilst personality is often fixed, I'm optimistic and open to the possibility it can change as well. But in regards to all you've mentioned, 

1) The personality change needn't be expressed through a change in MBTI category (since this is just one lens. )

2) A single unit of change needn't happen along any of these 4 scales/axes in XXXX, because XXXX being a 4 scales was never the right way to view it. XXXX is a code for function stacks. 

1. That's purely your misinterpretation of what I meant.

2. That's your interpretation and belief.  If an axe was made for chopping trees, people using it to kill doesn't make it "the wrong way to use it".  Especially if there's now generations of axe killers who've adapted it continually for what they do.  I mean, this is simple evolution stuff..  

 

 

On 21/11/2020 at 1:08 PM, lmfao said:

 

@nitramadas I don't think about mbti much in my day to day thinking because I don't think it captures anything meaningfully mechanics wise, and it might just be a categorisation of outward correlates that don't reveal anything substantial.

Like in my model examples, it's just a simpler version that has its use.  I can almost immediately tell at least 2 letters from anyone, accurately.  If you only use functions, you'd probably just not bother working anyone out as it's orders of magnitude more demanding and time consuming.

 

Quote

Sort of like if a child categorised everything in reality by what physical color it was.

T-That's what you're doing with functions!  You're like someone who's found my "imagination model" and think's it's profound.

 

 

On 21/11/2020 at 1:08 PM, lmfao said:

 

@nitramadas Hence if you're interested in personality growth and etc I wouldn't think about it in these terms. 

Models and theory won't help be grow much.  That's only really useful for pre-Yellow.

 

 

On 21/11/2020 at 1:08 PM, lmfao said:

 

@nitramadas Also, at the start of conversation, you ended up trying to make a lot of judgements and guesses about me rather than engaging in the topic of conversation. Projecting whatever you did about spiral dynamics. And I've seen a few of your posts elsewhere. 

I just really love figuring stuff like this out!  Yes, I sound arrogant a lot on this forum; I have no intention of "acting" or avoiding investigating whatever I feel like because of imaginary social expectations.  I try to be an example to all.  Everyone seems too anxious and serious about everything.  Someone has to be the balance.  I want others to be be unfiltered.  If you don't, you have to ask "why do I want people to be filtered?".

I just want a world in which everyone's genuine, and no matter what anyone talks about, unconditional love is always assumed.  This how you be part of the solution.

Projecting?  Unfiltered Yellow = spontaneous/random objectivity & truth.  Not everyone likes that.  I treat everyone like Yellow.  I've no reason to do otherwise.  There is little point in entertaining Orange conversations I find, but I do like testing myself and do enjoy using the intellect to an extent.

 

On 21/11/2020 at 1:08 PM, lmfao said:

 

@nitramadas It seems like an unconscious mentality where you're comparing yourself to others too much. Spiral dynamics is this standard for worth and so your mind is obsessed with knowing your own position on it, and also knowing where other people are on it.

"The standard for worth" Hmm, that's a nice way to word it.  I'm not new to SD, the novelty wore off long ago..  Being Yellow / Turquoise doesn't excite me or anything.  It's just that it's, basically, impossible that I'm anything lower than Yellow, by any standard.  You may interpret my actions as arrogant, that's fine.  I remember being at all the stages, from Yellow/lower-Turquoise down to Beige, I remember being you.  : )

 

 

On 21/11/2020 at 1:08 PM, lmfao said:

 

@nitramadas The same way many people are always comparing how materially rich they are with each others, using fads like shoes, phones and cars as proxies for self worth. Or like a kid in high school comparing his test scores with other kids. 

..weird of you to say.

 

On 21/11/2020 at 1:08 PM, lmfao said:

 

@nitramadas The real truth of the matter behind what I'm saying though, is that I just dislike you. The rest is probably just an extra layer of deception. 

Love  (づ｡◕‿‿◕｡)づ 

 

[nitramadas]

 

On 21/11/2020 at 2:44 PM, integral said:

@nitramadas We can go back and forward like this for a while, maybe lets try a different method.

Hmm, that does sound temping..

 

 

On 21/11/2020 at 2:44 PM, integral said:

@nitramadas From what i see there are misunderstanding of all models mentioned and your using your powerful mind to masterfully rationalize your beliefs, running circles around everything. There is even the misconception of waking up and growing up, that turquoise is about mystical experiences.

I explained more thoroughly in that massive post above.  I can explain anything in as much detail as you need.  Question quality/conciseness is important.

 

And.. wow, you seem much more vibrant, less Orange compared to my recent conversations.  : )

 

Quote

Dig deeper into the models. Deciding that you see the flaws of these models in premature, your seeing flaws in your understanding.

Seeing flaws comes first.  That's how you know what questions to ask. 

 

I've studied a lot of them; still do.

 

Quote

 

Start here tell me what you think.

https://www.objectivepersonality.com/home

Go over integral theory again... realized that you do not accel at all quadrants and that what you believe is intelect is just a one narrow set of multiple intelegences.

Words like thinking and feeling are over generalizations. 

 

"objectivepersonality" Hmm, that does sound familiar for some reason..

 

Integral theory?  You mean this?

http://kosmosaicbooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/spiral_dynamics_aqal_BIG.jpg

According to this, I'm just another pathetic, commoner ..Turquoise.

 

I'll investigate the link later.

Edited November 23, 2020 by nitramadas

[Shin]

Should get back to the topic.

This is more about who has the best comprehension about mbti than ressources for Intp.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Shin said:

Should get back to the topic.

This is more about who has the best comprehension about mbti than ressources for Intp.

It's a dick measuring contest, let's be Frank 

Edited November 23, 2020 by Carl-Richard

[integral]

@Carl-Richard lolol well when someone claims all INTPs are yellow... 

 

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, integral said:

@Carl-Richard lolol well when someone claims all INTPs are yellow... 

 

Then it turns into who's dick is the most Yellow

[integral]

These guys type thousands of people each year, in a 512 type system, with all that data patterns reveal themselves. 

Edited November 25, 2020 by integral

[Godhead]

I've recently finished reading Biographies of Albert Einstein and Leonardo Da Vinci by Walter Isaacson. Both of them have been labeled as INTP's.  I can definitely recommend reading up on big INTP personalities. 

[Ibgdrgnxxv]

Real vibes of INTPs.