Thoughts on DXM(Dextromethorphan)?

[Travelion]

Hey guys, i wonder if DXM is suitable as a psychedelic for personal development an consciousness work.
The thing is, it's legally accessible here in Germany (not in pure form, but I don't think that's much of a problem), I tried it several times and i could imagine working with it. On my last trip (i took 8 capsules which correspond to 240 mg) meditating felt like merging into my body and myself (I couldn't localize my body parts on the bed) with increased awareness.
What are your thoughts and recommendations/experiences with on DXM?

[Leo Gura]

The problem is that it isn't pure.

I would look for mushrooms or LSD.

You live so close to Netherlands.

[vibv]

I really like the effects of DXM, and you can go pretty deep with it, but there's one problem with it imo: One of its effects is causing confusion. It is a very 'unclear' substance.

I probably will experiment a bit more with it (albeit with long breaks in between - that's another thing: It really affects you up to 1-2 weeks, depending on dose, after the experience), because I find dissociatives fascinating and you can go to very unique places with them.

But for doing the real work, it's gonna be the usual suspects: Psilocybin, LSD, DMT, 5-MeO and so on .. 

I wouldn't resort to doing mainly/only DXM, there are better, cleaner, tools for turning up that consciousness knob.

[Peo]

1 hour ago, Travelion said:

DXM is suitable as a psychedelic

it is  not a psychedelic it is a  dissociative.

[outlandish]

It's a dissociative so like Peo said it's not a psychedelic, and it's unhealthy - even if you could get it pure, it's still bad for you. I'd recommend staying away from it and get some real psychedelics instead.

[Javfly33]

1 minute ago, outlandish said:

It's a dissociative so like Peo said it's not a psychedelic, and it's unhealthy - even if you could get it pure, it's still bad for you. I'd recommend staying away from it and get some real psychedelics instead.

I had my first true ego death in ketamine, and I had tried lsd and shrooms before ... So I wouldn't be so sure to say "a dissociative is not a Psychedelic". I think more than the distinction of "Psychedelic vs not Psychedelic" a more accurate one is a substance with x % of Psychedelic properties. Does dissociatives have Psychedelic properties, of course they do, and my experience is a clear evidence of it.

However I still consider the 'classics' much more reliable for most people, and the fact that they can't almost never be abused as an addiction is also a plus.

 

[Javfly33]

28 minutes ago, Peo said:

it is  not a psychedelic it is a  dissociative.

Again, there's no such a thing as a "true Psychedelic". There are substances with Psychedelic properties,most dissociatives are one of them. 

[outlandish]

@Javfly33 In the pharmacological sense, DXM, ketamine and PCP are not psychedelic, they are dissociatives. They work on a different set of receptor sites than the psychedelic class. This doesn't mean anything about the kind of experience you can have on them, and there's no rule saying you can only have an ego death on a psychedelic.

[Javfly33]

Just now, outlandish said:

@Javfly33 In the pharmacological sense, DXM, ketamine and PCP are not psychedelic, they are dissociatives. They work on a different set of receptor sites than the psychedelic class. This doesn't mean anything about the kind of experience you can have on them, and there's no rule saying you can only have an ego death on a psychedelic.

Well, Pharmacologycally speaking, there's no such a thing as a Psychedelic, only substances that "shows hallucinogen properties", which both Psychedelics and dissociatives do. 

That's why doing the distinction between "Psychedelic vs dissociative" can be useful to group certain kind of substances, but fundamentally incorrect in the sense that dissociatives do produce Psychedelic effects. 

It's not that I think the distinction should stop being used, but rather that if the OP was interested in DXM and someone says "it's not a Psychedelic" it might make the OP to think that dissociatives have no Psychedelic properties whatsoever.

[outlandish]

We could split hairs on the definitions, but I think the main point is that there's a big difference in the mechanism of action between the class of compounds that's normally labelled "psychedelics" and the group normally labelled as "dissociative". Like you said, it can be useful to make this distinction. 

Traditionally "psychedelics" are serotonin receptor agonists including the tryptamines, phenethylamines, and lysergamides. So LSD, mushrooms, mescaline, DMT, 5-MeO-DMT are all examples

Traditionally, "dissociatives" are NMDA receptor antagonists like DXM, Ketamine, PCP, MXE and a bunch of other related compounds.

That doesn't mean you can't have psychedelic-like effects on a dissociative, or dissociative-like effects from a psychedelic. People get psychedelic-type effects from smoking weed too, and that's yet another set of receptors. But I don't think it's accurate to call weed a psychedelic either.

Heck some people even claim they see god when they drink booze.

[KingCrimson]

I have some experience with this so I'm gonna chime in. It's been like 10 years or so though since the last time I took it.

I agree with outlandish as far as definitions go. It's definitely very different from the classical psychedelics, not only in its mechanism of action, but also in its effects.

I experimented a bit with the substance when I was younger and didn't have access to a proper psychedelic. I can say this much: It is in interesting experience, it can be very fun, dissociating from the body/dissolving into the environment is very easy (hence the classification is "dissociative"), music can be very euphoric. Not much OEVs going on unless combined with weed, which I wouldn't recommend - similarly to classical psychedelics, the strength of the trip increases exponentially and combined with the weed paranoia you could be setting yourself up for a really bad time. The CEVs are breathtaking though, even without weed, but they are not comparable to the classical psychedelics. It's not like the mandalas you get on LSD etc. For me, it was more like full blown storylines, almost like lucid dreams, that were happening behind my eyelids. I remember once I was a soldier in a Middle Ages setting during a siege. I was standing right in front of the castle walls, the enemy was hurling rocks down at us, left and right people were trying to climb the walls. Next to me a soldier got hit by a rock on the head and fell to the ground. All very vivid, and all around very weird. Often you get this sense as if you're a train moving on through tunnel. If you know the trip scene from The Big Lebowski where Jeff turns into a bowling ball, it's a bit like that. The effects can be very different depending on the dosage though, and even the same dose can yield totally different results. It's not really possible to recreate the same experience twice, it's really a gamble what you get.

Having said all that: Although on the whole I enjoyed my time with this substance, it was purely recreational. In all the times I've done I have never had any remotely profound insights like I get on LSD or mushrooms. It is interesting for the experience itself, it's just a new state of consciousness that I hadn't experienced before, but I don't think it would suit itself for proper consciousness work. It can make you very confused, on higher doses you will have a hard time walking, and you are just generally in a really, really weird headspace. It's not very clean at all. There are also people who get properly addicted to it in a similar way to heroin addicts, craving the dissociation from the body and the accompanying pain relief. This is something that doesn't really happen with classical psychedelics. On classical psychedelics your senses are enhanced, you feel your body and everything going on inside it more, not less.

As far as damage to the body is concerned, as far as I know there is no evidence for neurotoxicity (contrary to PCP for example, a similar substance which is heavily neurotoxic). It can't really be good for the liver though, and depending on the method of consumption, it can be extremely destructive to the body. (There are people gulping down 2-4 bottles of cough syrup in a row. The amount of sugar alone is crazy destructive, not even talking about all the other stuff that's contained in it). On the positive side, it is very hard to overdose on the substance. You won't experience actual respiratory paralysis, but the dissociation can get so strong that you don't feel yourself breathing anymore, which can be very disconcerting.

The most comprehensive resource I found on the subject is the DXM FAQ by William E. White. But you have probably seen that already since its prominently featured on Erowid. Here is the link regardless: https://erowid.org/chemicals/dxm/faq/dxm_faq.shtml

TL;DR: Would not recommend, definitely not for consciousness work. Can be an interesting experience, purely recreational though. Likely not neurotoxic, but definitely not a good thing to put in your body. Hard to overdose on, but often psychologically addictive. Feels quite "dirty" and can make you very confused. Not a lot of commonalities with classical psychedelics like LSD, psilocybin, or DMT. No profound insights and does not feel therapeutic at all.

Edited June 18, 2020 by KingCrimson

[vibv]

As far as I know it can be neurotoxic if big doses with little time in between are consumed.
IIRC there have been documented cases of declined ability to memorize stuff, and overall decline of cognitive abilities, after heavy abuse of DXM.

And yeah, as KingCrimson said, it can also be pretty addictive (depending on your personality). So be cautious.