spiral dynamics hierarchical necessity

[coughie]

I can perfectly match my development with spiral dynamics and I understand how did I evolved from my current stage at the time rebelliously, but when I look other people, I see that most of the people bypass the stage red! I don't know, maybe I can't fully understand stage red despite I've read about red stage in the spiral dynamics integral and some other places; I just can't convince myself to help stage purple people to go red! And I don't know how can I do that!
Below stage blue, stages are not very distinguishable and I think they have not a lot to offer, like in order to embrace stage blue, you should still have some knowledge about your religion and in stage orange you should have lots of scientific knowledge in order to transcend stage blue, so higher stages (blue, orange and green) require a solid kind of intellectual structure to back your ideas up, so it's easier to be distinguished, but I can't find such a thing for stage red! I classify atheists and religious people who are dogmatic about their ignorance in stage red and ordinary people who are willingly ignorant, into this stage but this by itself doesn't solve my problem.

Edited June 15, 2020 by coughie

[apparentlynoself]

46 minutes ago, coughie said:

I can perfectly match my development with spiral dynamics and I understand how did I evolved from my current stage at the rime rebelliously, but when I look other people, I see that most of the people bypass the stage red! I don't know, maybe I can't fully understand stage red despite I've read about red stage in the spiral dynamics integral and some other places; I just can't convince myself to help stage purple people to go red! And I don't know how can I do that!
Below stage blue, stages are not very distinguishable and I think they have not a lot to offer, like in order to embrace stage blue, you should still have some knowledge about your religion and in stage orange you should have lots of scientific knowledge in order to transcend stage blue, so higher stages (blue, orange and green) require a solid kind of intellectual structure to back your ideas up, so it's easier to be distinguished, but I can't find such a thing for stage red! I classify atheists and religious people who are dogmatic about their ignorance in stage red and ordinary people who are willingly ignorant, into this stage but this by itself doesn't solve my problem.

I don't think that there are stage red atheists. I think that, if you are stage red and don't believe in god, you just call yourself a non-believer in god. To be an atheist would require more knowledge and nuance which stage red does not have. 

[Leo Gura]

Yeah, Red is tricky. I think most of us simply don't have enough direct experience of it because our societies and cultures have evolved beyond Red so much by this point.

If you really want to understand Red you're gonna have to have some direct interactions with Red people and sub-cultures. Reading about it is not enough. We lack reference experiences for what we read about Red.

In developed societies Red is experienced very early in the childhood and teenage years. A developed society simply doesn't tolerate Red behavior much beyond that. Adults will quickly shame the kid into Blue because dealing with Red is too much hassle.

If your parents beat you, it's probably because you were acting too Red and they wanted you to be Blue. So literally they beat the Red out of you.

[Girzo]

I like to think I was Red at 8 years old listening to my favorite song by Cascada then, singing "be my bad boy" and making thought experiments for how much money I would kill a person. But to be honest, I was probably deeply entrenched in Blue by then, I was too well-behaved.

Red patterns of thought are widely spread in western societies in groups like research chemicals dealers, small thieves, football ultra-fans, various groups with cults of personality. Although I have never met a person whose behaviors would consist only from those typical to stage Red and lower memes. They all have stage Blue ideas back in their head ingrained by the culture.

One would have to go to Africa or somewhere to meet such a person.

Also, all the Red people I have met in my life are now either Blue, mostly started families and changed, or are in jail.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Girzo

[Leo Gura]

My dad had a good amount of Red. It was a really fucked up way to grow up in ways most people could not believe.

If I told you stories of all the shit my dad did, it would be more outlandish than a movie and your jaw would drop to the floor.

Americans, for the most part, don't appreciate what stage Red is. You have to go to a 3rd world country like Russia to witness it. Americans would call it sociopathic, and yet it's just how people at Red schedule their day.

[Apparition of Jack]

@Leo Gura Come on man, you can’t leave us hanging like that... 

[mandyjw]

@Leo Gura And yet here you are? That's pretty amazing. 

[WHO IS]

Is domination of weak by the strong a quality of the red?

[The Blind Sage]

@Leo Gura If you don't want to share personal stories that's fine, but could you give some more insight into how your dads psyche worked? What were his values and worldview exactly? I'm always at a loss of how to deal with stage red people.

[Parththakkar12]

There is only one way to understand Stage Red - emotional consciousness. They're emotionally impulsive sociopaths who can fake morality and can mainpulate their way in and out of other people's morality. They haven't really integrated morality, they don't yet have the capacity to prioritize acting according to an ideology over reacting to their emotions. It is biologically hard if not impossible for them to do that. Because of this, they will try to pull low-integrity behaviors like breaking rules and re-interpreting what they did in a self-serving manner, the way Trump does.

If you are able to wake up to the reality that we are all One on an energetic, emotional level, you will be able to take that person as part of yourself. That is when you will really understand their motivations. You will then be able to anticipate their low-integrity behaviors, you will learn to speak their language.

All the suffering they cause is due to unconscious behaviors. All unconscious behaviors are mechanical by definition, they don't really feel empowered enough to change it. The fact that it's mechanical makes it possible to anticipate what they'll do. The more in depth you're able to study their psyche and anticipate what they'll do, the better you'll be able to manage them, the more at peace you'll be with them.

My mom has Red, Blue and Orange in her. Her center of gravity is Blue. She does Stage Red stuff from time to time - she will do something that's low-integrity, then she'll use smart intellectual rationalizations to justify why she's still a good person after what she did. The reason this is Red is that it's more about proving that you're a good person than about actually being a good person. It's more of Red transitioning to Blue.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[Eren Eeager]

@Leo Gura every stage has healthy and unhealthy version of it, but what about red, how can red have a healthy version? I cannot get it.

[KingCrimson]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

My dad had a good amount of Red. It was a really fucked up way to grow up in ways most people could not believe.

If I told you stories of all the shit my dad did, it would be more outlandish than a movie and your jaw would drop to the floor.

I'm intrigued, would you mind sharing some of these stories or is this too personal? I think my grandfather might have a decent amount of red. He used to drink a lot and could be violent even. Often treated my grandma and mother like shit and to this day feels extremely entitled and orders my mom around to do stuff around his house, wash and iron his clothes etc. During the corona crisis, she went shopping for him so he could stay home and he would shout at her, telling her that she was useless and bought all the wrong stuff etc. Sadly, she doesn't have very good boundaries. Only recently she's been learning that she is not obliged to obey and deal with all of his shit. Does this kind of entitled patriarch sound like Red, or is that even worse?

[Apparition of Jack]

@The Blind Sage Red respects confidence and self-control, so if you can display you have both of those Red will be convinced to listen to you. Of course, since Red is full of itself to begin with you have to be very upfront and brutal with them, but do so in such a way that doesn't threaten their ego too much and gives them room to understand that what you're saying is wise and true. It's a very difficult balancing act and requires a lot of discipline and courage, which is why so many people can't do it effectively and end up feeling intimidated by Red.

[Carl-Richard]

I believe young teenagers who get into spirituality coopt the greenish "freedom" aspect to suit their red inclinations. That was atleast the case for me.

[remember]

6 hours ago, coughie said:

Below stage blue, stages are not very distinguishable and I think they have not a lot to offer

on the contrary, because people are much more cut off from these stages, these stages have especially much to offer, toxicity in stages like blue and orange are especially found here - in my opinion best way to integrate these stages in a healthy way is in green, maybe that’s what then makes up a huge part of jumping to a healthy yellow.

6 hours ago, coughie said:

I just can't convince myself to help stage purple people to go red! And I don't know how can I do that!

martial arts sports, theater, any kind of challenging sports game. challenge in education. with success feedback.

lack of selfesteem is also a shadow of red, if red is not balanced. a balanced red you can find that in some kind of selfesteem and body awareness which does not need to impose - that’s why green is relatively nice to also balance red. the same as it is contrasting red it can balance red. red needs positive challenge and striving in and with a group, healthy purple, that’s also what pushes green into yellow at some point.

Edited June 15, 2020 by remember