Policing Is Hard Work

[Forestluv]

16 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

 

   If I see someone running away from me, with my stolen weapon, turning around to fire it, I would shot. 

 

It’s important to note that the power of the two weapons were nowhere near equal. A taser from 30ft away is nowhere near the power of a gun. There is a HUGE difference between shooting back with a taser or shooting back with a gun. 

[Parththakkar12]

I just want to mention that we're doing these lengthy debates from the luxury of our homes. You aren't really thinking any of this when you have a drunk guy aiming a taser at you. In fact you aren't thinking anything. You're just reacting. Cop or lay person.

If you're a cop, your reaction will be a trained one. It will be to remove your gun and shoot. A normal person will literally not know how to react in that situation, gun or no gun.

Imagine you have a gun in your pocket, and a drunk guy with a taser comes to mug you. Say you have the right to shoot him. Will you remove your gun and shoot him? Or will you give him your wallet and let him go? Which one would be the prosaically safer option? That would be the normal person's reaction.

[AtheisticNonduality]

5 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

I just want to mention that we're doing these lengthy debates from the luxury of our homes. You aren't really thinking any of this when you have a drunk guy aiming a taser at you. In fact you aren't thinking anything. You're just reacting. Cop or lay person.

If you're a cop, your reaction will be a trained one. It will be to remove your gun and shoot. A normal person will literally not know how to react in that situation, gun or no gun.

Imagine you have a gun in your pocket, and a drunk guy with a taser comes to mug you. Say you have the right to shoot him. Will you remove your gun and shoot him? Or will you give him your wallet and let him go? Which one would be the prosaically safer option? That would be the normal person's reaction.

A guy with a taser running away is not a threat to your life.

[Danioover9000]

@Parththakkar12

8 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

I just want to mention that we're doing these lengthy debates from the luxury of our homes. You aren't really thinking any of this when you have a drunk guy aiming a taser at you. In fact you aren't thinking anything. You're just reacting. Cop or lay person.

If you're a cop, your reaction will be a trained one. It will be to remove your gun and shoot. A normal person will literally not know how to react in that situation, gun or no gun.

Imagine you have a gun in your pocket, and a drunk guy with a taser comes to mug you. Say you have the right to shoot him. Will you remove your gun and shoot him? Or will you give him your wallet and let him go? Which one would be the prosaically safer option? That would be the normal person's reaction.

3

   Good point. A Russian Systema teacher I once had said a very similar thing to what you said, without undergoing training that simulates exactly what you would deal with, don't expect to react perfectly, expect to still react uncleanly. I've had many instances while learning martial arts that I was still clumsy in my reaction times and executions of my techniques and defended myself against a person using a knife on me. It wasn't a clean situation but I was able to subdue the person.

   In your thought experiment, I think it depends on the person with the gun if he had any training or no training. I personally would draw and give warning to the mugger. No sign of acknowledging my warning, verbally or non-verbally, and still closing the distance, I would issue the warning again. Still no response, and 7-5 meters away from my gun, I'd adjust my aim for the person's legs. If he draws any weapon from his pocket, then I'm gonna shot. Just because, in this case, he draws a taser, and it's non-lethal, he can still stun me, disable my defenses, and not only frisk me and get my wallet, but my gun, and what's to stop him from blowing my head off? I've seen his face...

Edited June 16, 2020 by Danioover9000
Typo.

[Parththakkar12]

1 minute ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

A guy with a taser running away is not a threat to your life.

Again, not enough time to think this through. Your reaction will not account for any of this.

[Consept]

36 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

   'seemed' is the keyword here. We can only know so much in a video, or in a person's direct experience, that we cannot assume anymore, otherwise, we are projecting way too much.

   That's fine reading stuff on him, but that's looking back to the past. Try to bring yourself into that police's position, as the situation is unfolding. As a hypothetical, you're the cop that the guy has stolen the taser from, and now you're giving chase, but you lose him. A day later, that same guy used your weapon to do evil to another person. How would you feel then, as the cop that lost his weapon?

Say your dad for example was involved in this situation, try and imagine your dad being gunned down by the cops whilst running away with a taser, would you have the same perspective?

[Consept]

13 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

I just want to mention that we're doing these lengthy debates from the luxury of our homes. You aren't really thinking any of this when you have a drunk guy aiming a taser at you. In fact you aren't thinking anything. You're just reacting. Cop or lay person.

If you're a cop, your reaction will be a trained one. It will be to remove your gun and shoot. A normal person will literally not know how to react in that situation, gun or no gun.

Imagine you have a gun in your pocket, and a drunk guy with a taser comes to mug you. Say you have the right to shoot him. Will you remove your gun and shoot him? Or will you give him your wallet and let him go? Which one would be the prosaically safer option? That would be the normal person's reaction.

Here in the UK officers dont have guns generally but have tasers, many suspects run away and are apprehended later through cctv or whatever else, nothing is lost by not shooting them.

[Forestluv]

13 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Imagine you have a gun in your pocket, and a drunk guy with a taser comes to mug you. Say you have the right to shoot him. Will you remove your gun and shoot him? Or will you give him your wallet and let him go? Which one would be the prosaically safer option? That would be the normal person's reaction.

Yes, the police officer has a very difficult job and must make split second decisions. As well, he could have been following police policy of when to shoot.

However, your analogy is way off the mark. This is not a situation in which a mugger confronts someone and threatens to use a taser if you don’t turn over you wallet. . . This guy was running away and was shot in the back. It’s a very different context.

[Forestluv]

5 minutes ago, Consept said:

Here in the UK officers dont have guns generally but have tasers, many suspects run away and are apprehended later through cctv or whatever else, nothing is lost by not shooting them.

Per capita gun ownership in the UK is 6.6 guns per 100 people.

Per capita gun ownership in the USA is 120.5 guns per 100 people.

If the UK went from 6.6 guns / 100 people to 120.5 guns / 100 people - do you think it would still be feasible for UK officers to only carry a taser?

[Parththakkar12]

2 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

However, your analogy is way off the mark. This is not a situation in which a mugger confronts someone and threatens to use a taser if you don’t turn over you wallet. . . This guy was running away and was shot in the back. It’s a very different context.

Yeah, so extend my analogy. The mugger takes your wallet and runs. You have a split second decision - do I shoot him or not? A normal person may not shoot him as that's the job of the COP! A cop may have to shoot him.

[Forestluv]

15 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Yeah, so extend my analogy. The mugger takes your wallet and runs. You have a split second decision - do I shoot him or not? A normal person may not shoot him as that's the job of the COP! A cop may have to shoot him.

If a mugger stole my wallet, ran away and a nearby cop gunned him down with three bullets in his back, I would be absolutely horrified. I would be terrified of the cop and run away from him as fast as I could. 

If I made it home safely, I wouldn’t know who to call. Do I call the cops on a bad cop and hope good cops come? I would probably lay low and avoid getting involved. 

[Danioover9000]

@Consept

10 minutes ago, Consept said:

Say your dad for example was involved in this situation, try and imagine your dad being gunned down by the cops whilst running away with a taser, would you have the same perspective?

   No, and while I try to understand another's perspective, frankly the majority of people don't care about anyone else's perspectives, as perfectly demonstrated in this thread, with this back and forth you're all having with Leo. It all depends on if your life experiences are tied to being with police and authority figures, or being antagonized by police and authority figures? This greatly shapes your main perspective on this issue, because that perspective is your way of life, way of survival of YOU.

[Consept]

2 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Per capita gun ownership in the UK is 6.6 guns per 100 people.

Per capita gun ownership in the USA is 120.5 guns per 100 people.

If the UK went from 6.6 guns / 100 people to 120.5 guns / 100 people - do you think it would still be feasible for UK officers to only carry a taser?

Im surprised its even 6.6 guns per 100, of course i get that police have to have guns in the US (gun control is an issue by itself) but my point was that if they let him go while he was running away, so what? They had his car he wouldnt have got very far, there was cctv, they had his details, he wasnt really violent so just let him go and pick him up later, thats what they probably wouldve done in the uk. Im also thinking that part of it is pride like the cop didnt want to 'lose' the situation, of course its speculation but i think it could be true

[Consept]

1 minute ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Consept

   No, and while I try to understand another's perspective, frankly the majority of people don't care about anyone else's perspectives, as perfectly demonstrated in this thread, with this back and forth you're all having with Leo. It all depends on if your life experiences are tied to being with police and authority figures, or being antagonized by police and authority figures? This greatly shapes your main perspective on this issue, because that perspective is your way of life, way of survival of YOU.

I know what youre getting at, but i just think in any other context of a man shooting another man in the back, take away the uniform, its a heartless act. Now is being in the police and being able to kill without consequence a big factor of course, but that shouldnt be the case. 

Like you said if it was your dad it would be the worst day of your life and you would see all the ways it couldve been avoided. Fair enough there are situations where its unavoidable but this for me couldve been avoided. I think we should have compassion that this man couldve been someones father or husband or brother or whatever. I think if you would have compassion for your dad in this situation and are able to look at how this could be avoided, you should have compassion across the board. 

[Forestluv]

Just now, Consept said:

Im surprised its even 6.6 guns per 100, of course i get that police have to have guns in the US (gun control is an issue by itself) but my point was that if they let him go while he was running away, so what? They had his car he wouldnt have got very far, there was cctv, they had his details, he wasnt really violent so just let him go and pick him up later, thats what they probably wouldve done in the uk. Im also thinking that part of it is pride like the cop didnt want to 'lose' the situation, of course its speculation but i think it could be true

I agree with that. 

I hear a lot of people suggesting that cops in the U.S. should just have tasers. Yet I don’t know if that’s feasible when there are so many civilian guns. 

Across the street from me, down the street from me is an apartment complex with people that drink and blast there music at night. Occasionally, I call public safety and request that a cop comes over to tell them to quiet down. I think people in most countries would think it’s not necessary for a cop to bring a gun on a simple noise violation call. Yet, they have lots of guns over there. They aren’t gang members or anything. They are just regular Americans with guns. . . Yet is it feasible to expect a cop to enter a situation unarmed in which people are drinking, have guns and want to play loud music? 

I think part of the problem in the U.S. is that there are way too many guns. And Americans are seeing sensationalized violence on TV, getting scared and buying even more guns. I think part of the solution is reducing the number of guns. 

[Consept]

3 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I think part of the problem in the U.S. is that there are way too many guns. And Americans are seeing sensationalized violence on TV, getting scared and buying even more guns. I think part of the solution is reducing the number of guns. 

This is a big part of it, if the guns were reduced i think police would be less on edge, there would be less police shootings etc. But its such a big business in the US i just cant see it happening. I mean kids literally get shot at schools and they still dont consider it, in fact a solution ive heard is more guns and training for teachers. 

Ive been stopped a few times and at no point did i fear for my life, it was an annoying situation but thats it. I would argue with them and question why theyre doing it but i dont fear any violence from them. Obviously i know if i was to insult them or swear at them or resist they would arrest me. I cant imagine what i would be like to genuinely fear for your life from the police, that Castillo shooting was horrible and speaks to how unnecessarily tense guns make routine situations

[Forestluv]

16 minutes ago, Consept said:

I cant imagine what i would be like to genuinely fear for your life from the police, that Castillo shooting was horrible and speaks to how unnecessarily tense guns make routine situations

I think this is a big imagination a lot of people are missing. A lot of inner city inner city youth don’t trust the police. I think it’s around 35%. I imagine the number is much higher in for youth in low income neighborhoods and even higher for minorities. Imagine the experience of not trusting the police or justice system and the cops are adversaries. There is a fear that confrontation with police could end up with you getting harassed, beat up and in the police station and they comb through your record looking for things to exploit. I’m not saying this is occurring everywhere in the U.S., yet it is a reality for many.

The closest I can come to is when I was traveling through Colombia. People told me I can only partially trust the police and to avoid any encounters with them. Some were heavily armed and the uncertainty was really uncomfortable.

Below, a young black male describes his experience with NYPD police. He is as medical student. 

 

 

[Leo Gura]

 

[AtheisticNonduality]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

 

The cops think the actions of the cops are justified?  No way.

 

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

The cops think the actions of the cops are justified?  No way.

Some keyboard jockey who has never policed anything in his life thinks that he knows how to do policing better than a sheriff with 20 years experience? No way.