Policing Is Hard Work

[Preety_India]

 

I would propose the complete elimination of guns. Because even if there are background checks, people still find a way to illegally get guns. 

Guns is the root cause of all the police brutality issues. 

Here in my country the police are not paranoid because they are already aware that nobody has a gun. There is just no way to get a gun because nobody sells them. They will be immediately confiscated. 

The police in America are very scared of the possibility of someone killing them with a gun. That's why they act so fast and they have to be on such a tight guard. They are on high alert all the time and that causes them to use excessive force even if they don't intend to. 

Remove the guns and see how differently police will approach people. 

You're ginormously increasingly the threat levels by introducing guns. 

Guns can't create a society. But they can definitely destroy a society. 

 

 

[Epikur]

16 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

 

I would propose the complete elimination of guns. Because even if there are background checks, people still find a way to illegally get guns. 

Guns is the root cause of all the police brutality issues. 

Here in my country the police are not paranoid because they are already aware that nobody has a gun. There is just no way to get a gun because nobody sells them. They will be immediately confiscated. 

The police in America are very scared of the possibility of someone killing them with a gun. That's why they act so fast and they have to be on such a tight guard. They are on high alert all the time and that causes them to use excessive force even if they don't intend to. 

Remove the guns and see how differently police will approach people. 

You're ginormously increasingly the threat levels by introducing guns. 

Guns can't create a society. But they can definitely destroy a society. 

 

 

Well maybe. That reminds me of Brazil. The answer does not seem to be so easy. Specially now that a fascist came to power there.

Quote

That’s the drill in Brazil, where law-abiding folk submit to a state-stewarded via crucis in the name of public safety. Meanwhile, it’s de facto open carry for the busy criminals who’ve turned Brazil into a continental kill zone.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-03-09/brazil-s-strict-gun-laws-haven-t-stopped-its-killers

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Epikur said:

Yet don’t you think there are also some contexts in which fairness can be increased without huge investment? For example, perhaps there are police and justice systems in parts of the U.S. that are only 80% fair. Going from 80% to 85% fair would be much less expensive than going from 94% fair to 99% fair. For example, there could be accountability and oversight measures that are inexpensive.

Yes, definitely. We gotta look for the low-hanging fruit in police reform, like body cameras, banning choke holds, etc. Some stuff is cheap and easy to do.

[Epikur]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, definitely. We gotta look for the low-hanging fruit in police reform, like body cameras, banning choke holds, etc. Some stuff is cheap and easy to do.

The quote is not from me it is from@Serotoninluv

Anyway I agree with both of you

[Forestluv]

45 minutes ago, Epikur said:

Something else comes to my mind. The US idea is also to create unity in diversity. That sounds like an oxymoron. Similar to be united and to be individuals at the same time. 
 

Yes, it is a paradox. 

I think part of the tension is that many people don’t want to give up their culture. And many people can’t imagine what the experience of another different from themself.

For example, It’s not that easy for me to see why American’s would so strongly hold onto old cultural aspects like protecting the prominence of Christmas, maintaining the Thanksgiving story of Pilgrims and Native Americans sharing meals together and the identity of the Wild West gun culture. . . Yet then I look at how the Chinese are slowly killing Tibetan and Uyghur culture. I feel saddened about the loss of those cultures and could see how those people would fight to maintain their culture. . . Then I can use that to better understand why so many conservative Americans want to preserve what they consider their American culture. 

[Epikur]

11 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Yes, it is a paradox. 

I think part of the tension is that many people don’t want to give up their culture. And many people can’t imagine what it would be like. 

For example, It’s not that easy for me to see why American’s would so strongly hold onto old cultural aspects like protecting the prominence of Christmas, maintaining the Thanksgiving story of Pilgrims and Native Americans sharing meals together and the identity of the Wild West gun culture. . . Yet then I look at how the Chinese are slowly killing Tibetan and Uyghur culture. I feel saddened about the loss of those cultures and could see how those people would fight to maintain their culture. . . Then I can use that to better understand why so many conservative Americans want to preserve what they consider their American culture. 

Yes true. I can relate. I was angry at my own culture and religion. Though I am still not a big fan of them I can find interesting, entertaining, enjoying parts of them through studying many other cultures. 

I guess cultures are very solid stories. You want to be really careful befor you try to replace it. If it fales there is a chance that it is irreversible. 

Plus we may need the lies to survive. It may sound not logic and counterintuitive ( I am going to use the word more) but still it can be true. 

The modern reality may not give us the stories (lies sometime) that keeps us going. Progress and survival can not be taken for granted. It's a wonder that one survives or people make babies. 

If the konservatives are not making the babies who will?

 

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Epikur

[Apparition of Jack]

@Leo Gura Do you think paying police officers more would help reduce a lot of the stress and insecurity that causes them to be so ready to resort to excessive violence? In the sense that even if they're putting themselves in harm's way, at least they know they're getting decent compensation for it, so don't have to worry about bills / paying for family needs / etc.

I've always found it slightly absurd how we pay the people who prevent the physical destruction of society (cops, nurses, etc.) so little, considering how crucial their work is and how stressful these jobs can be. I've met a few nurses in my life for instance and they're all very compassionate and hard working people, but I always feel sorry for them because they always have some sort of sob story about not being able to make rent or having to look after sick family members and so on. I imagine for cops it's similar (not saying cops are the same as nurses but they have similar-ish lines of work and come from similar pay brackets.) If a cop who had to deal with violent criminals every day at least knew his daughter would be able to afford college no problem, would he be as likely to use excessive force?

[Forestluv]

4 hours ago, Preety_India said:

This black man was a sturdy guy who had immense strength. Those 2 white officers were completely unprepared to handle this guy on their own. You would need a minimum of 6 white police officers to handle such a guy. So the police department was under staffed to deal with such a situation. If there are more police officers they wouldn't be so stressed out. The responsibilities would be divided into lot of people. have a gun culture. 

I don’t think this is feasible. There is the cost issue, yet also the police presence issue. There comes a point in which people don’t want to be over policed, even if that means increased risk. There is a point of diminishing returns. Adding 100 police officers in my neighborhood might increased my safety by 5%. Each police officer would have less responsibility and be less stressed.. Yet I don’t want to live in a police state with 100 cops in my neighborhood looking for troublemakers. And it would raise new problems. 

I’d like to see changes that would make police officers jobs easier. For example, banning semi-automatic weapons and get as many off the street as possible. Hiring professional social workers, psychologists, addiction specialists and de-escalation experts into the police force. This would put less pressure on police to deal with mentally ill people, drug addicts and homeless. That’s not really what they are trained for. Also things that increase communication between police officers and the community.

To me, being a police officer would be a miserable job. The entire job reveals around conflict, pain and danger. I’d be constantly stressed.
 

[remember]

the maximum outcome of this case would be that gun rights in the us are abolished - its interesting how it seems much easier to abolish police than gun rights. ofc that would be a longer process of reformations and so on but with all due respect that would be fair towards the police. somehow it’s difficult to imagine police supporting every small criminal running around with a weapon. if there will be police reform, there actually must be gun law reform. its not possible to put all pressure on police. 

this whole: have a lollipop child, but don’t eat it! thing with guns is sometimes so absurd. and afterwards punishment, that sounds like a sick relationship.

Edited June 15, 2020 by remember

[Parththakkar12]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's the catch-22. The more conscious you become the less willing you will be to fill roles requiring low consciousness to succeed in them.

This part I disagree with. You don't technically have to be low consciousness to succeed at any profession. It is possible to have your genuine life-purpose be an encounter specialist and do the whole James Bond thing!

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Apparition of Jack said:

Do you think paying police officers more would help reduce a lot of the stress and insecurity that causes them to be so ready to resort to excessive violence

No, I don't think you can solve that problem by directly throwing money at it. New training standards are needed.

[Godhead]

Wasn't the whole thing about him falling asleep in a waiting line? 

So what if you let him run, is he going to fall asleep in another parking lot? Does he really deserve to be shot 3 times?? The officer didn't even try to shoot for his leg, just 3 immediate bullets not even waiting to see if the first one immobilized him. 

Say what you will, but this situation could be handled a whole lot better. 

They had his car and footage of his face, it shouldn't be too hard to identify him and later charge him with something bigger.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Godhead

[Leo Gura]

25 minutes ago, Godhead said:

Wasn't the whole thing about him falling asleep in a waiting line? 

So what if you let him run, is he going to fall asleep in another parking lot? Does he really deserve to be shot 3 times?? The officer didn't even try to shoot for his leg, just 3 immediate bullets not even waiting to see if the first one immobilized him. 

Say what you will, but this situation could be handled a whole lot better. 

They had his car and footage of his face, it shouldn't be too hard to identify him and later charge him with something bigger.

Dude was driving while intoxicated. Could have easily killed another driver or pedestrian. You can't let DUI's run free. And you can't let intoxicated people run around with tazers.

If that cop let this guy run away with his tazer, and then he tazed some innocent lady with it, you would also want to hold the cop responsible: "How could you let a criminal run away with your weapon?! What kind of cop are you?"

Just as a thought experiment, what do you think would happen if you went up to a cop at the mall and starting licking the gun attached to his hip? I wouldn't be surprised if I was shot for doing that.

[JosephKnecht]

5 hours ago, Preety_India said:

Remove the guns and see how differently police will approach people. 

You're ginormously increasingly the threat levels by introducing guns. 

Guns can't create a society. But they can definitely destroy a society. 

 

If you remove guns, only criminals would be able to have guns. In a country with lots of criminals, you are likely to get shot by criminals. 

Guns don't kill people. Idiots with guns kill people. Remove the idiots from society and nobody cares who has a gun or not. 

How to remove idiots? Education. 

[Leo Gura]

Removing guns from American culture is like removing rice from Asia. Good luck.

[Preety_India]

 

 

1 minute ago, JosephKnecht said:

If you remove guns, only criminals would be able to have guns. In a country with lots of criminals, you are likely to get shot by criminals. 

Guns don't kill people. Idiots with guns kill people. Remove the idiots from society and nobody cares who has a gun or not. 

How to remove idiots? Education. 

Trying living in a country where there are absolutely no guns. Live in India. I don't know other countries but I guess there are many many countries that don't have guns. 

Take that gun wool off your eyes. You have this illusion that criminals will kill you with guns. Nope. That's just an illusion. 

If that was true, I would have been dead by now, shot dead by a criminal with a gun 

 

In a country that bans guns very strictly, criminals cannot stock up guns. It's difficult. Who will supply them with guns? 

You don't understand. It doesn't work like this. Even if a few criminals have guns, they can't kill everyone. There's the police that can kill them. 

America is under an illusion that it needs guns. You don't need guns.. 

 

 

 

[Godhead]

47 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Dude was driving while intoxicated

NOT a reason to kill him.

47 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Could have easily killed another driver or pedestrian.

You don't give someone the death penalty on the spot for "what they could have done".

47 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You can't let DUI's run free.

 So you would rather kill them? 

47 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If that cop let this guy run away with his tazer, and then he tazed some innocent lady with it, you would also want to hold the cop responsible: "How could you let a criminal run away with your weapon?! What kind of cop are you?"

He just wanted to escape from the cops. I don't see why he would go around and taze people. Even if, would you rather get a "how could you let a criminal run away with your tazer" or a "how could you murder a person"

 

I definitely see your point, that policing is hard and all. But this shouldn't keep us from criticizing toxic behavior. 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Godhead

[Preety_India]

 

@Godhead I totally agree with you. 

I have no idea how Leo doesn't understand such a basic thing. 

 

[Epikur]

1 hour ago, Preety_India said:

 

 

Trying living in a country where there are absolutely no guns. Live in India. I don't know other countries but I guess there are many many countries that don't have guns. 

Take that gun wool off your eyes. You have this illusion that criminals will kill you with guns. Nope. That's just an illusion. 

If that was true, I would have been dead by now, shot dead by a criminal with a gun 

 

In a country that bans guns very strictly, criminals cannot stock up guns. It's difficult. Who will supply them with guns? 

You don't understand. It doesn't work like this. Even if a few criminals have guns, they can't kill everyone. There's the police that can kill them. 

America is under an illusion that it needs guns. You don't need guns.. 

 

 

 

You can not compare randomly countries I guess. For example you can not compare Brazil with India. The people have different temperaments and different history.

I guess the white Americans are maybe like the swiss people. Their guns are the symbol of their freedom I guess. 

I guess you can change cultures if you come literally with A-Bomb like in the case of Japan. They changed in one day.

It feels like saying give up your language. English is the most practical language in the world why wasting time with other languages? Changing systems are very costly. It's like changing your operating system, your religion. 

Say to a muslim their religion is not ok for the modern world. They will not accept it. 

The gun owners have a point when they say that with guns they can defend themselves against their government that becomes tyrannical. Look at china, north korea, cuba, nazi germany. These things can happen.

Things in life are not black and white. 


 

[abundance]

14 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Lots of police-bashing these days. And I agree that reforms are necessary to expunge systemic racism.

But also consider why this issue is much more complicated than it seems. Try to appreciate the challenges of policing drunk, crazy, and criminal people.

This video shows the challenges: two cops armed with a taser are still not able to successfully arrest 1 guy.

In my mind, if you resist arrest, steal a cop's taser, run away, and then fire his taser at him. Yeah... you should expect to be shot.

Did this incident even require an arrest? That's a worthy question we should all be asking. Why not just let him walk home or give him a ride home.