What has more influence over testosterone secretion PNS or SNS

[WisdomSeeker]

What has more influence over testosterone secretion Parasympathetic Nervous System or Sympathetic Nervous System?

[Michael569]

PNS stimulates it, SNS steals it. When you are in Sympathetic dominance and cortisol is increased,  it will actually "hijack" testosterone production by stealing Progesterone & Pregnenolone needed to go towards DHEA and Androstenedione. Instead majority of steroids will be used towards the cortisone pathway. 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Michael569

[WisdomSeeker]

@Michael569 thx exactly what I needed. So, working out hard in the morning activating SNS, but then through yoga, breathwork, meditation diet I can reintegrate into my day activating  PNS for the rest of the day and that is how I would balance out SNS and PNS, because it's difficult to workout hard if I dont activate my SnS, and so long as I dont stay in that state of sns activation, and instead then activate pns for the rest of the day, I should be good. Most of the time being in Pns is good, but one cant always be in pns nor would that be good, correct?

[Michael569]

@WisdomSeeker short term activation is actually required. Human mitochondria need to be exposed to small amount of stress constantly to be able to replicate and maintain antioxidant defences. Also short term stress from high-intensity activity improve blood sugar balance, blood pressure, moves lymphatic system so that's great.

Its when this gets overwhelming that you start having issues such as being stuck in anxiety states for days. But SNS and PNS often overlap and it is not as simple as switching from one to the other in a matter. 

[WisdomSeeker]

@Michael569 do you have recommendations on optimizing both. Workout timing type of workouts and balancing it after for the rest of the day via yoga, meditation? How do you measure this besides how you feel after, are you using heart rate monitor, eeg, ph/cortisol levels  etc.? Realisticslly could you be a body builder, cross fitter, high intensity athlete and have balanced SNS and PNS?

Edited June 12, 2020 by WisdomSeeker

[Michael569]

@WisdomSeeker any activity that involves moving puts you in Sympathetic activation. Some more (running, lifting) than other (walking) but most do. Even the typical western "yoga" is often more stimulating than relaxing ...ever seen all these girls doing yoga with heart rate monitors?  that's a joke. 

Nah man, once you start trying to monitor these things you'll go crazy....just observe how you feel throughout the day. If you are tired and lethargic without having done anything then you need to get more active. If you feel completely burned and crashed after your workout, you have gone overboard and caused more damage than benefit. 

Monitoring PH is pointless as the body has internal homeostatic mechanisms to do that. Cortisol should naturally decline throughout the day unless there is some sort of disturbance in there. If you want to do vigorous monitoring of things like VO2 max, exhaled Co2, glycogen depletion etc you need to hook yourself to a metabolic lab for a couple of thousand dollars. 

Just follow the rules of healthy lifestyle, sleep enough and eat when needed without overindulging and you'll be fine

 

[WisdomSeeker]

@Michael569 it seems to be that the balance of an elite athlete (in this case I'm emphasizing athletes which require maximal muscle think body builder, football player) with consistent activation of PNS, that seem to be at odds. There are exceptions, but most people that have seemed to reach the higher levels of meditation and PNS activation, do not seem to be these elite type of athletes that I am focusing on? Are they at odds with eachother? This and the fact that many of these types of athletes are jacking their endocrine system up by taking anabolic steroids, which I would also imagine hinders PNS activation, even though you mentioned PNS activation increases testosterone levels. 

Not to overgeenralize and over simplify,  but you don't see an arnold schwarzennegger like guy hitting heightened states of PNS and consciousness like a Sadhguru, thich nhat hanh etc, etc, for example. 

Edited June 12, 2020 by WisdomSeeker

[Michael569]

@WisdomSeeker I think the desire to be a top athlete defeats the entire purpose of raising one's consciousness. It is a neurotic desire to be the best which can never be maintained. Either your body breaks down from all that free radical damage and you crumble or you simply age and younger men get better, you can see a lot of this in ageing athletes.

Either way being an elite athlete usually makes for a pretty miserable and painful retirement. The more one has been stimulating himself/herself throughout life in any way the greater the ageing body has been taxed, scarred and damaged beyond repair. It is not a longevity strategy at all.  

+ add to that dumping down tons of animal proteins and enhancing substances, creatines and all this garbage and you have a stage 4 chronic kidney disease in your late 30s 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Michael569

[Moreira]

1 hour ago, WisdomSeeker said:

@Michael569 it seems to be that the balance of an elite athlete (in this case I'm emphasizing athletes which require maximal muscle think body builder, football player) with consistent activation of PNS, that seem to be at odds. There are exceptions, but most people that have seemed to reach the higher levels of meditation and PNS activation, do not seem to be these elite type of athletes that I am focusing on? Are they at odds with eachother? This and the fact that many of these types of athletes are jacking their endocrine system up by taking anabolic steroids, which I would also imagine hinders PNS activation, even though you mentioned PNS activation increases testosterone levels. 

Not to overgeenralize and over simplify,  but you don't see an arnold schwarzennegger like guy hitting heightened states of PNS and consciousness like a Sadhguru, thich nhat hanh etc, etc, for example. 

Dont look at pro budybuyilders because their testosterone dynamics is totally masked by the steroids. In fact  the olds school habit of eating every 2-3 hours lowers testo. In the other hand, it has been proved that what gives a big impact of natural testo production is intemitent fasting, D3 vitaim, cleaning the liver and eating quality fats. Apart from the obvious strenght training and hiit.

[WisdomSeeker]

@Moreira @michael569 thank you both, glad you reinforced my thinking.  Now, picking a more sustainable goal for health and fitness that isn't influenced by these deceiving and cultural and extreme examples of fitness, would be the idea. 

[Lyubov]

@Michael569

Do you by chance have a list of supplements, foods, activities, and books to boost testosterone naturally?

[Michael569]

@Lyubov

Before you take supplements or herbs for testosterone always get tested. Every guy I have ever worked with who assumed he has low testosterone, had good levels so make sure this is not coming from a place of insecurity. 

Anyways, few basic lifestyle & diet tips to prevent "testosterone stealing" by other hormones or processes

• Exercise especially lifting heavier objects or lifting yourself e.g. callisthenics and lot of bodyweight work. 
• (Avoid) over-exercising, long sessions of cardio and marathon runs. 
• Proper Sleep (largest spike in growth hormone) 
• (avoid) Smoking including weed - destroys libido and natural testosterone
• (avoid) Alcohol - same as smoking 
• (Avoid) excessive salt 
• (Avoid) exposure to environmental endocrine disruptors (too complex to break down here, look this up online) 
• (Avoid) irradiating your testicles by putting a cell phone in your front pocket or putting a laptop on your lap or standing next to microwaves when being used. 
• Stress management
• Regular Sex raises testosterone temporarily. Masturbation doesn't. 
• Obesity and being overweight results in conversion of testosterone to oestrogen by the fat tissue 
• Sufficient intake of healthy fats overall (building blocks for steroid hormones) e.g. Nuts & Seeds (raw) 
• High intake of fruits & veg (necessary cofactors for steroidogenesis) 
• Regardless of what you will hear on typical men's health forums, I would avoid excessive consumption of meats, dairy and eggs especially red meats, processed meats, chargrilled meats, anything that has been burned or barbecued is incredibly harmful and damaging to sperm and sex health. There is a common misconception that meat products make you more manly which is nonsense. However some oily fish is fine and can be beneficial.  
• Foods rich in Zinc can be useful

Supplements (use cautiously and test tested first). Don't use any of them if you an have ongoing medical condition!!!! In such case discuss with a ctor first. 

• Tribulus Terrestris
• Pygenum Africanum
• Panax Ginseng 
• Maca 
• Withania Somnifera 
• Alpha-Lipoic Acid - this is more for sperm health. 
• CoQ10 - also more for sperm health and motility 

 

[Onemanwolfpac]

On 11/06/2020 at 11:11 AM, WisdomSeeker said:

What has more influence over testosterone secretion Parasympathetic Nervous System or Sympathetic Nervous System?

Read estrogenation. 

[UDT]

On 11/06/2020 at 5:30 PM, Michael569 said:

PNS stimulates it, SNS steals it. When you are in Sympathetic dominance and cortisol is increased,  it will actually "hijack" testosterone production by stealing Progesterone & Pregnenolone needed to go towards DHEA and Androstenedione. Instead majority of steroids will be used towards the cortisone pathway. 

@Michael569 Beautiful Michael, you know your shit. Makes me want to Interview you on a podcast, interested?

[Michael569]

@UDT thanks man but I'll probably pass

[LfcCharlie4]

On 12/06/2020 at 4:57 PM, Michael569 said:

@WisdomSeeker I think the desire to be a top athlete defeats the entire purpose of raising one's consciousness. It is a neurotic desire to be the best which can never be maintained. Either your body breaks down from all that free radical damage and you crumble or you simply age and younger men get better, you can see a lot of this in ageing athletes.

Either way being an elite athlete usually makes for a pretty miserable and painful retirement. The more one has been stimulating himself/herself throughout life in any way the greater the ageing body has been taxed, scarred and damaged beyond repair. It is not a longevity strategy at all.  

+ add to that dumping down tons of animal proteins and enhancing substances, creatines and all this garbage and you have a stage 4 chronic kidney disease in your late 30s 

I agree to an extent especially with certain sports such as bodybuilding, you are essentially destroying your body to reach the top, although I feel it’s important not to dismiss it completely, watching the 90s greats like Dorian Yates has showed me it does way deeper. 
 

I feel a healthier desire is to be the best you can be possibly be, while maintaining your health in the best way possible & doing it simply for the love of the game.

For example, I play recreational cricket, and have been paying a coach to improve, and honestly it’s helped so much and made me enjoy the sport even more, I feel most sport/ skill games are like tbis, the better you get, the more you can enjoy it, but I feel a “stage yellow” approach would be to compare yourself to yourself, instead of everyone else, and doing it because you enjoy and love it.

Also, retirement can be a great chance for deeper inner work, I hope we see this more and more. 
 

I for one am very excited to see sports grow and develop from our stage orange society, they have so much potential! 
 

Sorry for the rant, but I feel many on this forum misunderstand and judge sports unfairly, like anything they can be amazing and beautiful, and in fact, being completely involved in a sporting endeavour is a very spiritual experience. 
 

Sadhguru’s article here highlights a healthy mindset around sports and games- https://isha.sadhguru.org/global/en/wisdom/sadhguru-spot/be-a-sport

I do agree regarding nutrition though, that needs to evolve in sports to once that supports overall longevity and wellbeing, that is something that will evolve very soon I imagine  

[WisdomSeeker]

@Michael569 For Testosterone: what about pine pollen and exposure to hot and cold (Sauna and Ice bath)?  Also, do you have examples of a well-known person that can be used as a good baseline of balance between PNS and SNS. I ask this because our society has skewed our perspective of what fitness is, sometimes, I don't know what I should be aiming for with a form of fitness that is balanced with the sympathetic nervous system. 

Edited June 16, 2020 by WisdomSeeker

[LfcCharlie4]

@WisdomSeeker

Watch this bro, the guy runs a clinic literally around this, and goes other the exact topic-

 

[WisdomSeeker]

@LfcCharlie4His goal at least, in the beginning he has explained for his client to get women. This is not important to me. It seems like a pua community based audience. Some of what he says is interesting, but I'm look at how to integrate and balance that with the sns and the spiritual. He doesn't seem to value that same goal. 

Personally I think audrey marcus has a much more holistic approach https://www.onnit.com/academy/testosterone-levels-need-know/ especially integrating this with a spiritual practice. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by WisdomSeeker

[LfcCharlie4]

@WisdomSeeker yeah PWF is, but the guy he’s interviewing isn’t, that was the point, that dude is married, all he’s interested in is optimum longevity and T levels for health and well-being, your call if you wanna watch, he goes over some vital info.