2 questions

[SamueLSD]

On 11/06/2020 at 6:57 AM, Kelpie said:

 I have always believed that life was something incomprehensible and beyond our understanding rather than the solid materialistic world most people believe it to be

Then you're already half way there, my friend

On 11/06/2020 at 6:57 AM, Kelpie said:

1- For those of you who believe we are all God generating the universe-  How can you be sure that we don't live in an objective reality that simply produced beings with consciousness who CANNOT DISTINGUISH whether we live in an objective reality or not, INSTEAD OF us simply being god generating reality?

What is existence to you?

You have admitted that there is nothing other than mind. 'Objective reality' is a concept within that mind. How could it be anything more? 

Consciousness is existence. 

There cannot be an objective reality. Even if you subscribe to the materialist paradigm, this reality is not as concrete as you think it is. Although it appears to make sense logically, logic doesn't even apply to all aspects of the universe. Look at quantum theory for example ( whether you believe it has metaphysical implications or not, you will realise infinity is all that there is ) 

 

48 minutes ago, Kelpie said:

 us each being God.

There is only one

[Kelpie]

To me, existence is something that cannot be known or understood. I currently believe, but acknowledge I may be wrong, that an infinitely complex objective reality does exist but it cannot be known by any consciousness.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Kelpie

[Kelpie]

My question to people who have attained enlightenment, how can you distinguish between 

1- An objective reality exists, it cannot be known or understood, and we simply believe we are god because as beings of consciousness, our own subjective reality is all we can ever know, and 

2- Objective reality does not exist, and only consciousness exists.

[SamueLSD]

4 hours ago, Kelpie said:

our own subjective reality is all we can ever know

Contemplate that. 

[Member]

4 hours ago, Kelpie said:

My question to people who have attained enlightenment, how can you distinguish between 

1- An objective reality exists, it cannot be known or understood, and we simply believe we are god because as beings of consciousness, our own subjective reality is all we can ever know, and 

2- Objective reality does not exist, and only consciousness exists.

I haven't attained enlightenment but from my understanding I can say that:

1. If objective reality exists then it should be independent of your perception but spacetime is merely a mind construct, not something really "out there". If your assumption is true, then the only 'objective reality' is only an expansion of your own mind, a dream within a dream just the same when you go to sleep and see yourself in a different reality, then you come back in the 'real world'. Obviously, you will never understand everything at once because the mind always expands.

2. God is your mirrored image and everything that you experience is you. Objective reality is not separate from you. It is you.

[Kelpie]

Spacetime is certainly a mind construct, but I never said objective reality needs to have either qualities.  If it exists, objective reality is completely beyond any consciousness's ability to fathom. But how can you prove it does not exist? 

Also, people on this forum throw around the word God very loosely. What do you mean by God?

Edited June 12, 2020 by Kelpie

[Kelpie]

Consciousness to me seems not all-knowing and omniscient, but the EXACT OPPOSITE. Infinitely limited in its perception.

[Member]

1 hour ago, Kelpie said:

Spacetime is certainly a mind construct, but I never said objective reality needs to have either qualities.  If it exists, objective reality is completely beyond any consciousness's ability to fathom. But how can you prove it does not exist? 

Also, people on this forum throw around the word God very loosely. What do you mean by God?

I can't see how a thing or anything can exist outside of spacetime. Does an atom experience space-time? No. But you are "made of atoms" and see the expansion of the mind which is changing its form to infinity to create this "objective reality" that we call matter.

Is past or future something you would call objective reality? It makes zero sense to think that there's something outside of you. God is you, not a bearded man waving its hand on a white cloud.

1 hour ago, Kelpie said:

Consciousness to me seems not all-knowing and omniscient, but the EXACT OPPOSITE. Infinitely limited in its perception.

Who said it's all knowing? Knowing is existing.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Member

[Kelpie]

An atom does not need to perceive spacetime to exist. Furthermore, we have no idea what an atom is. Imagine if we shrunk 10^10000 times in size. An atom would then become an unimaginably large universe, and details about its structure on unimaginably small scale would reveal itself to such an observer that perceives not through human senses of sight limited to an infinitesimally small sliver of the electromagnetic spectrum, but perhaps through senses we cannot fathom. 

 

If by God you mean yourself, then the statement, "we are all God" becomes "we are all ourselves" and loses all it's grandeur don't you think...? 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Kelpie

[Member]

2 hours ago, Kelpie said:

Aha, you said it yourself, "I don't see how". That's the point, your inability to envision how anything can exist outside of spacetime is your limitation. An atom does not need to perceive spacetime to exist. Furthermore, we have no idea what an atom is. Imagine if we shrunk 10^10000 times in size. An atom would then become an unimaginably large universe, and details about its structure on unimaginably small scale would reveal itself to such an observer that perceives not through human senses of sight limited to an infinitesimally small sliver of the electromagnetic spectrum, but perhaps through senses we cannot fathom.

Isn't an atom part of the same fabric that we call "objective reality"? Thus, how can you cay that the atom exists outside spacetime?

If we don't perceive everything, it doesn't mean that we can't have some extra senses somewhere in the future.

And saying that an atom has senses is pretty inappropriate for such a small particle, don't you think?

2 hours ago, Kelpie said:

If by God you mean yourself, then the statement, "we are all God" becomes "we are all ourselves" and loses all it's grandeur don't you think...?

I'm not saying that "we" are all God, I'm saying that you are God.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Member

[Kelpie]

Ok, I am God and God is me, doesn't really tell me anything, except that I am myself(aka God). And are you God as well?

Edited June 12, 2020 by Kelpie

[Member]

30 minutes ago, Kelpie said:

Ok, I am God and God is me, doesn't really tell me anything, except that I am myself(aka God).

Does it look like I'm something outside of you?

30 minutes ago, Kelpie said:

And are you God as well?

Yes, I am God.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Member

[traveler]

On 10.6.2020 at 10:57 PM, Kelpie said:

First off, I have not done any of the drugs that users of this forum have used to reach enlightenment. However, I have always believed that life was something incomprehensible and beyond our understanding rather than the solid materialistic world most people believe it to be. After reading through this forum, I still have 2 questions. 

1- For those of you who believe we are all God generating the universe-  How can you be sure that we don't live in an objective reality that simply produced beings with consciousness who CANNOT DISTINGUISH whether we live in an objective reality or not, INSTEAD OF us simply being god generating reality? And when I use the term objective reality, I mean an objective reality that is beyond any sort of comprehension at all. Because any perception is by definition, biased and subjective. Objective reality can never be known by consciousess.

 

2- Whether there is an objective reality or whether consciousness is all that exists, why do we perceive an orderly world instead of PURE randomness?   

 

Thank you

1. Understanding this logically will never be satisfactory. There is no reason to figure this out, no reason to understand it. This is always full and complete, this is exactly what you want. It is pure unbounded love appearing as whatever is appearing. The apparent person has preferences, it likes nice feelings and dislikes uncomfortable feelings. This feeling that is present right now is pure love and impossible perfection. You stray away from what you want by looking somewhere else. This human like experience, these human like problems, these ups and downs are an indescribable gift. Whatever is, is what is longed for. This can only be sensed, it can not be understood by thought. If thought appears, let it be, all attempts to understand this are just love arising as that.

2. This is as random as it gets! Order out of chaos. You don't actually know what this is. Imagine that you are a ball within a bingo cage. You (the ball) develops self consciousness and begins relating to the other balls around you and the world (bingo cage). In the bingo cage it seems orderly, you can distinguish certain laws within it. You are sure that you are bouncing around inside it with your fellow bingo ball friends and strangers, and that you have free will as a seperate bingo ball. You begin to demand answers, why is this not just pure randomness? Why is it orderly? 

This is just to paint a very superficial picture of the futility of understanding "God" aka "This."

[Kelpie]

@Member ok if I am God and you are God, then we are all God are we not?

@ traveler what I mean by randomness is, why does our consciousness not fluctuate between experiencing all possible worlds at all times? Why do we not jump from experiencing as a human one moment, to a bingo ball the next, to a prime number the next, to some unimaginable entity our consciousness cannot even fathom the next, etc etc, instead of experiencing the human experience continuously? I don't think you are really understanding what i mean by randomness.

also, after reading many stories of NDErs, I believe that when we die, we do experience unconditional love and merge with a universal consciousness. All this still does not disprove of an objective reality that we cannot fathom. 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Kelpie

[traveler]

@Kelpie Because this is all there is. This! Why does a word appear like this, why does this taste like this and not like that, why why why. There is nothing to hold on to, there is nothing behind this holding it up. It is not solid. There is no continous human experience, there is just whatever appears fresh and new, random and caotic. Within that chaos an apparent story is told, apparent orderliness. How amazing is that??? The ordinariness of this is extraordinary. Impossible impossible impossible infinite infinite infinite love, the words just dont cut it. 

[Kelpie]

I don't think this is all there is, just all that we can experience. I think there is an unimaginably infinitely complex objective reality that happened to produce beings of consciousness like us. We just happen to be so lucky that this objective reality, aka "God" in my mind, is benevolent(for lack of a better word), by enabling consciousness to experience pure infinite love instead of pure horror and randomness.

I am open-minded to changing my beliefs, but after reading many stories told by people on psychedelics, it seems much more likely that their state of mind was altered by the drugs to BELIEVE they are God, and consciousness is all that exists, rather than that being the underlying truth. 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Kelpie

[Member]

27 minutes ago, traveler said:

@Kelpie Because this is all there is. This!

 

24 minutes ago, Kelpie said:

...just all that we can experience. I think there is an unimaginably infinitely complex objective reality that happened to produce beings of consciousness like us.

You both actually agree but I don't agree. Because bitch, I am God

[traveler]

44 minutes ago, Member said:

You both actually agree but I don't agree. Because bitch, I am God

hallelujah! And the show must go on!

[Nahm]

3 hours ago, Kelpie said:

I am open-minded to changing my beliefs, but after reading many stories told by people on psychedelics, it seems much more likely that their state of mind was altered by the drugs to BELIEVE they are God, and consciousness is all that exists, rather than that being the underlying truth. 

Open mindedness isn’t changing beliefs, it’s no longer believing your thoughts, and inspecting as to what’s actually true. Open mindedness is a metaphysical term, not just psychological. Empty the cup of beliefs. It is presently jam packed full. 

When you’re talking about psychedelics, the mind, consciousness, subjective, objective, God, yourself, etc, you’re talking about your beliefs. In not realizing this, you’re creating a sort of ‘master big picture belief’ about an ‘unimaginably infinitely complex objective reality that happened to produce beings of consciousness like us, but can not be known subjectively’. All of these beliefs only serve the single belief, that you are separate. All suffering arises from that one belief. All limitations appearing across all facets of your life arise from that one single belief. 

Everything you’ve talked about in this thread can be known and understood completely, but it’s all in the actual inspection of the screen and projector, so to speak, not the movie. It’s the most worthwhile endeavor, and requires actual open mindedness, inspection, and self honesty regarding beliefs. You could start with the belief that experience is in parts, which could be ‘random’ or ‘in order’. Or just ignore what’s said here. That’s the real beauty of experience, you’re creating it, so it’s always up to you. 

[Kelpie]

@Nahm but I don't think I'm suffering. I recently discovered that simply going out and enjoying nature more puts my mind at peace. It's human society and all man-made creations, artificial, meaningless and ugly, that has been the root of all my suffering. And again, how can you prove that we are all one, and not just individual consciousnesses believing we are all one?

If the temperature of the Earth's atmosphere rose by 50 degrees, I don't think suffering would be an option no matter what I believed or could create with my mind :-). 

 

As for your argument that we create our reality, I again argue that it is much more likely we subjectively perceive an objective reality, because if all of existence was indeed created by my consciousness, it should be completely random, rather than an orderly experience. 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Kelpie