The Over-complication And Detachment Of Awakening

[HereNowThisMoment]

If enlightenment is the realization of the truth of no self, experiencing that the egoic self is a secondary process that is created out of awareness, then why do we complicate it beyond that?

It seems like the deeper I dive into this work the more it becomes riddled with wordplay. Intellectually, the minor semantic differences have proven to be useful in many cases, but its experiential value is arguable. These descriptions can never convey the truth of what is, so doesn't talking about the minor details wind up over-complicating things by setting up a belief of what enlightenment should/must be? Even fundamental enlightenment beliefs like "oh when you're enlightened you feel an overwhelming sense of love for all things" may only pollute the purity of awareness as it Is which is unbound by any sort of compartmentalization or conceptualization. It all seems to get really hand-wavy. In my experience, love has seemed to be acceptance of what is rather than love in the traditional sense of the word. This love, if it can be called that, is consistent and calm, rather than excitable and somewhat needy. That's just one example of how an experience doesn't necessarily fit the expectation of how something, within the context of enlightenment, should be (at least based on my original interpretation of what I thought the statement meant).

Another thing that I have questioned to a greater extent is my overall demeanor. I feel authentic in my interactions with people but I am also colder than I used to be. I can't help but wonder if the cause of that is awakening to what is true in my own experience or whether it is a result of new conditioning from all of this work that I've been deeply exploring since Leo's first enlightenment video came out. When I say cold, I mean it in the sense of not really being fazed by anything anymore, a sense of detachment, and just accepting what is. For example, I accept death, tragedy, etc. much more quickly than people around me because I realize that those things are beyond my control, somewhat subjective, illusory, etc. As a result, I am not as nurturing as a probably could be, so I am at odds between putting on a hat and playing the role of nurturing person or just accepting what is (including the fact that people are in pain because they cannot also accept things as they are). That is not to say that accepting what is means being complacent in every circumstance, easing the suffering of others can be important in my opinion (but it becomes unnecessary once you don't need things to be any particular way as there is no suffering created in the first place). And of course, working towards any sort of goal is inherently a result of wanting things to be different from how they are currently. But where does one find the balance between acceptance and imposition of self-will? Spiritual teachers such as Adyashanti, Eckart Tolle, etc. seem to have found a good balance and I've certainly "gained" a lot from learning and experiencing many of their teachings but I can't help but wonder if they do what they do because, on a certain level, they cannot accept things as they are. So then, why do people who we believe have achieved the highest levels of awakening find any need to teach at all? Yes, I'm being contradictory, because I did say that "easing the suffer of others is important" and but there is an egoic component to that. With non-duality it stands to reason that by reducing the suffering of others we are benefitting awareness as a whole, but the very notion that suffering is "bad" and must be avoided is a human construction. In that sense, I almost feel as though Jed McKenna's reclusive behavior may have been the most realistic representation of an enlightenment teacher who accepts things as they are. What then is the point of this journey? Sure, I've pretty much completely eliminated my personal suffering but in doing so I have become less relatable to other people. I understand what they are going through intellectually and I have about 22 years worth of programmed thinking experience to be able to relate to them, but I don't feel the desire to to a large extent. And I could walk in circles about how that doesn't matter either, etc. etc. but I think I've probably made the crux of my viewpoint apparent. Can anyone who has had a similar experience shed some light on this?

Wow, I think I went on a lot of tangents, but hopefully it's coherent enough. If you have any insights about any of my questions/comments, I'd like to hear them. Thank you. 

[HereNowThisMoment]

Oh and just to be clear, although my post probably comes across as nihilistic that is not the viewpoint from which it was written. I've gone through periods of deep nihilism earlier on in my journey. This is more about acceptance rather than hopelessness. 

[Fishy]

What if u stop overanalyzing and try feel with the heart instead of trying to digest it with the intellect. Drop the concepts, what are you left with?

[HereNowThisMoment]

Nothing, that's a relatively simple experience to have and the beginning of the awakening process. I'm more interested in going deeper than that, which is where the more complicated self-inquiry takes place. Perhaps I am just overanalyzing things though, which is why my post was introduced with that premise. 

Thank you for your response. 

[Fishy]

More complicated self-inquiry like what? You dont need to put in more "stuff".  Doesn't more complex just bring u further from truth which is simple?

Edited July 18, 2016 by Fishy

[HereNowThisMoment]

haha that's the question I've been asking too. My last response was poorly worded, I'm not trying to complicate things, I'm trying to understand is if enlightenment goes deeper than why my first sentence in my first post said. I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, I'm actually agreeing with it, which is the point that I was trying to make in the first paragraph of my original post. But I'm still conflicted because I've fallen into the trap of what I think enlightenment is based on everything I've heard about it, how hard it is supposed to be to experience, blah blah blah which is what I'm trying to get over. 

[Ayla]

59 minutes ago, HereNowThisMoment said:

If enlightenment is the realization of the truth of no self, experiencing that the egoic self is a secondary process that is created out of awareness, then why do we complicate it beyond that?

 

This is the dying mind cornering itself.  

1 hour ago, HereNowThisMoment said:

So then, why do people who we believe have achieved the highest levels of awakening find any need to teach at all?

Who are we to stand in front of life manifesting itself as "teaching"? (have you ever notice how people like that cannot really repeat what they said 2 minutes ago? - because none of that is "thought". It'd just a sort of "translating". Also, their impossibility to read long texts? That is because the longer a text is, the higher the possibility for mind to begin arguing..)

1 hour ago, HereNowThisMoment said:

Sure, I've pretty much completely eliminated my personal suffering but in doing so I have become less relatable to other people.

You have only lost interest in other MINDs ("I"s, drama etc). 

 

1 hour ago, HereNowThisMoment said:

"oh when you're enlightened you feel an overwhelming sense of love for all things"

aside from the fact that there needs to be an "overwhelmed" and something that overwhelms it, which is yet another illusion, what we call love in this context is a "translation" of the acceptance that is being manifested. LOVE feels more impartial as a term than acceptance I suppose. 

 

[HereNowThisMoment]

@Ayla Thank you! 

16 minutes ago, Ayla said:

This is the dying mind cornering itself.  

Great, let it die haha! Do you mean that my mind is just looking for more concepts to keep itself from dying? 

20 minutes ago, Ayla said:

Who are we to stand in front of life manifesting itself as "teaching"?... have you ever notice how people like that cannot really repeat what they said 2 minutes ago?

Is this what is meant by "Kill the Buddha"? These teachers have helped guide things up until this point, but now I have to let go of the teachings because the are no longer helping, but rather these concepts are what are keeping the ego from dying? 

23 minutes ago, Ayla said:

You have only lost interest in other MINDs ("I"s, drama etc). 

Yeah, that's largely what I've noticed. Petty drama, vanity, competition, etc. no longer interests me. It's surprising to me because I used to be extremely competitive and superficial. 

24 minutes ago, Ayla said:

what we call love in this context is a "translation" of the acceptance that is being manifested. LOVE feels more impartial as a term than acceptance I suppose. 

That clears things up for me, thanks!

[Ayla]

11 minutes ago, HereNowThisMoment said:

Great, let it die haha! Do you mean that my mind is just looking for more concepts to keep itself from dying? 

38 minutes ago, Ayla said:

Sort of. Mind will not all of the sudden say: I want to die - on the contrary, it will fight as long as it wants to with concepts and theories and experiences and unicorns... until it will hopefully one day declare "bankruptcy", exhaustion, forfait, no can do.  hehe

38 minutes ago, Ayla said:

Who are we to stand in front of life manifesting itself as "teaching"?

What I meant is that those teachers do no "plan" in any way to teach. Their mind has become just what it is supposed to be: a translation machine for Self. They are just letting their body-mind be "used" as life (God, Love, Universe) wants to. 

 

11 minutes ago, HereNowThisMoment said:

Is this what is meant by "Kill the Buddha"? 

38 minutes ago, Ayla said:

What comes up here when I read this, is that...even an experience of pure bliss and love ... is still ONLY an experience. It comes and it goes. This can be a wonderful way for Ego to enter through back door and keep seekers stuck in "high" and "low" illusion 

 

11 minutes ago, HereNowThisMoment said:

These teachers have helped guide things up until this point, but now I have to let go of the teachings because the are no longer helping, but rather these concepts are what are keeping the ego from dying?

Ego IS concepts. Any concepts. 

[HereNowThisMoment]

22 minutes ago, Ayla said:

until it will hopefully one day declare "bankruptcy", exhaustion, forfait, no can do.

So should I keep doing what I'm doing now (a combination of observing and intellectualizing the way I did in my first post) in order to exhaust my mind completely? Or is the intellectualization hindering this? 

26 minutes ago, Ayla said:

What I meant is that those teachers do no "plan" in any way to teach.

Isn't everyone that way to a certain extent? The thoughts just come and go, it is just the degree of resistance that people have to those thoughts that I'd say is different. So someone with very little resistance can easily flow while people who are constantly at odds with their thoughts are more hindered. 

31 minutes ago, Ayla said:

is still ONLY an experience. It comes and it goes... keep seekers stuck in "high" and "low" illusion 

This was an important reminder, thanks. Is the only reason that spiritual teachers share their enlightenment experience/s to gain credibility? 

34 minutes ago, Ayla said:

Ego IS concepts. Any concepts.

So unless I never have a thought again the ego will never be killed? If that is the case, then why is there a need to exhaust it at all? Why not just accept that it is there but the compulsive drive to identify with it is unnecessary? 

[Ayla]

2 hours ago, HereNowThisMoment said:

So should I keep doing what I'm doing now (a combination of observing and intellectualizing the way I did in my first post) in order to exhaust my mind completely? Or is the intellectualization hindering this? 

3 hours ago, Ayla said:

Maybe just found out if YOU have any saying in this at all... 

2 hours ago, HereNowThisMoment said:

Is the only reason that spiritual teachers share their enlightenment experience/s to gain credibility? 

??? to gain credibility from whom??? ... other people?? LOL

No no, what it is, is a form like this perhaps: 

2 hours ago, HereNowThisMoment said:

So unless I never have a thought again the ego will never be killed? If that is the case, then why is there a need to exhaust it at all? Why not just accept that it is there but the compulsive drive to identify with it is unnecessary? 

Why indeed ??

[HereNowThisMoment]

32 minutes ago, Ayla said:

??? to gain credibility from whom??? ... other people?? LOL

Lol, don't get me wrong, I'm not implying that I think they're frauds or anything like that, just that they probably share their experiences to rope in followers regardless of the motivation to do so (pull to share, profit, spiritual ego, etc.). Many people seem to have this yearning for a teacher outside of their own direct experience (myself included, otherwise I wouldn't be on this forum right now asking for guidance) so it is logical to think that they would want their teacher to have some "credibility." 

 

38 minutes ago, Ayla said:

Why indeed ??

Oh haha, that's it? So is there anything beyond that acceptance? I am still stuck in seeking mode. I've heard things along the lines of "enlightenment is awareness being aware of itself, beyond perception, sensation, and thought" so is that ever actually possible in direct experience or is it time for me to stop seeking and just settle into being awareness and let that happen if it happens? (I think I may have answered my own question) 

[Ayla]

2 minutes ago, HereNowThisMoment said:

regardless of the motivation to do so

Teaching just wants to happen in "people like that". Life expressing itself in that way somehow.

Motivation implies a certain momentum and planning, which.. isn't possible when there is nothing else than present moment and nobody else "out there" to teach to. 

3 minutes ago, HereNowThisMoment said:

Oh haha, that's it? So is there anything beyond that acceptance? I am still stuck in seeking mode. I've heard things along the lines of "enlightenment is awareness being aware of itself, beyond perception, sensation, and thought" so is that ever actually possible in direct experience or is it time for me to stop seeking and just settle into being awareness and let that happen if it happens? (I think I may have answered my own question) 

 

[HereNowThisMoment]

11 hours ago, Ayla said:

Motivation implies a certain momentum and planning

I agree to a certain extent. I think if that motivation is purely a means to an end (i.e. I want to achieve X in the future) then it is exactly as you described. But motivation to do something as the end in itself (which I think you described as "Life expressing itself in that way somehow.") is still a pull towards something/motivation, it is just independent of planning. I think it's possible to be highly motivated while still being fully grounded in the present moment. 

11 hours ago, Ayla said:

nobody else "out there" to teach to.

Never thought of it that way! 

[HereNowThisMoment]

@Ayla 

19 hours ago, Ayla said:

I've heard things along the lines of "enlightenment is awareness being aware of itself

This was a much simpler realization than I thought... I sat with it and realized that if I am able to ask/answer that question then awareness is already aware of itself. Crazy how the mind will run circles when the truth is right there in plain sight. 

[charlie2dogs]

On 7/18/2016 at 7:34 PM, HereNowThisMoment said:

haha that's the question I've been asking too. My last response was poorly worded, I'm not trying to complicate things, I'm trying to understand is if enlightenment goes deeper than why my first sentence in my first post said. I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, I'm actually agreeing with it, which is the point that I was trying to make in the first paragraph of my original post. But I'm still conflicted because I've fallen into the trap of what I think enlightenment is based on everything I've heard about it, how hard it is supposed to be to experience, blah blah blah which is what I'm trying to get over. 

its only hard while you are searching all those different paths, trying all the internet guru's, struggling from one to the other to make sense of it, and then you ask what if all of them are wrong, what now.  people are being led on all these paths, around in circles,where are they going, do they ever expect to arrive at a destination, what is the goal, 

what is the goal , what do you think its going to be like to be enlightened, why would anyone seek it, what do they gain, can anyone say.

[HereNowThisMoment]

@charlie2dogs I think what ends up happening for many is that they search for so long that they desperately want it to be something magnificent for all the searching to be worth it. The more time invested, the more grand the expectation. For a long time, I wanted that, chasing after an image of what I thought enlightenment is. 

But to actually answer the line of questioning: I don't think it is anything "special" in the way I was expecting. I do however think the very fact that awareness exists and is the only reason why anything exists is the most spectacular realization I've ever had. I've contemplated for 15+ hours since I posted that other comment and I realize now that there is nothing to look for. I don't have the desire to seek any more knowledge about enlightenment (As Jed McKenna put it "The point is to wake up, not earn a PhD in waking up). Awareness is it. I understand now that I was expecting some sort of a shift. As though there would be a pre-enlightenment self and a post-enlightenment "self." But this is it. Awareness is already everything. No intellectualization/understanding/conceptualization will ever change the empty awareness in which that cognizing takes place. And although the thoughts that appear within the awareness are significantly different than before I started delving into this topic, the awareness that is aware of these thoughts remains unchanged. It's the whole "gateless-gate" thing. I always assumed that some experience (a "gate") would allow me to pass from pre-enlightened, egoic thinking to enlightenment. But there is no gate. There is no experience that must occur. There is no fundamental shift in the awareness itself. The awareness is the same awareness regardless of how my cognitive experience labels that awareness.

There is nothing to seek that isn't already right here. There is nothing to gain as it was never lost. Whether I am "enlightened" or not doesn't matter. It never did matter. It was just another label. 

[charlie2dogs]

10 hours ago, HereNowThisMoment said:

@charlie2dogs I think what ends up happening for many is that they search for so long that they desperately want it to be something magnificent for all the searching to be worth it. The more time invested, the more grand the expectation. For a long time, I wanted that, chasing after an image of what I thought enlightenment is. 

But to actually answer the line of questioning: I don't think it is anything "special" in the way I was expecting. I do however think the very fact that awareness exists and is the only reason why anything exists is the most spectacular realization I've ever had. I've contemplated for 15+ hours since I posted that other comment and I realize now that there is nothing to look for. I don't have the desire to seek any more knowledge about enlightenment (As Jed McKenna put it "The point is to wake up, not earn a PhD in waking up). Awareness is it. I understand now that I was expecting some sort of a shift. As though there would be a pre-enlightenment self and a post-enlightenment "self." But this is it. Awareness is already everything. No intellectualization/understanding/conceptualization will ever change the empty awareness in which that cognizing takes place. And although the thoughts that appear within the awareness are significantly different than before I started delving into this topic, the awareness that is aware of these thoughts remains unchanged. It's the whole "gateless-gate" thing. I always assumed that some experience (a "gate") would allow me to pass from pre-enlightened, egoic thinking to enlightenment. But there is no gate. There is no experience that must occur. There is no fundamental shift in the awareness itself. The awareness is the same awareness regardless of how my cognitive experience labels that awareness.

There is nothing to seek that isn't already right here. There is nothing to gain as it was never lost. Whether I am "enlightened" or not doesn't matter. It never did matter. It was just another label. 

you are trying to rationalize something you have never experienced, and i think it is because you have listened to the wrong people too long and you have become frustrated in your search, and you have a belief system fueling the rationalizing,  and now you have to make enlightment fit what you are.  Those who have become self realized were not expecting a shift either, but it happened, to everyone single one of them, and they didnt realize it until after the experience.  There is a gate in a manner of speaking and i will use the chakras for an example,  many are sitting at the third eye thinking they have become enlightened, believing they have become enlightened, but they have not reached the crown chakra, and they are lost as how to get there. that is where you are right now, no offense meant here, your own words define where you are for those who have experience and the reality of self realization.  and i dont mean to make that sound like there are many because there arent many, they are few and far between.  if and when you ever become self realized, the ones that are will know and you wont need to tell them because they have been where you are but that wasnt good enough for them, it wasnt liberation,

[Mal]

@charlie2dogs

I suspected that this non duality teaching is not enlightenment. 

It's just psychology, isn't it?

[HereNowThisMoment]

1 hour ago, charlie2dogs said:

you are trying to rationalize something you have never experienced, and i think it is because you have listened to the wrong people too long and you have become frustrated in your search, and you have a belief system fueling the rationalizing,  and now you have to make enlightment fit what you are.

That's okay, I am not going to chase after some experience I'm "supposed" to have. I can't force myself to experience nothing and if I try to then I'm always going to be experiencing something. So if it happens, it happens, if not, that's okay too. As far as "wrong people," when it really comes down to it, listening to anyone except your own direct experience is the wrong person to listen to. Anyone held as authority will perpetuate duality and conceptual thinking. 

1 hour ago, charlie2dogs said:

Those who have become self realized were not expecting a shift either, but it happened, to everyone single one of them, and they didnt realize it until after the experience.

Further reason for why I shouldn't chase after some shift. 

1 hour ago, charlie2dogs said:

There is a gate in a manner of speaking and i will use the chakras for an example,  many are sitting at the third eye thinking they have become enlightened, believing they have become enlightened, but they have not reached the crown chakra, and they are lost as how to get there.

I know nothing about chakras. I also don't feel any desire to know anything about them because, again, they are just more concepts. 

1 hour ago, charlie2dogs said:

that is where you are right now, no offense meant here, your own words define where you are for those who have experience and the reality of self realization. 

No offense taken, I feel no need for approval. If that is where you see me then that is fine. 

2 hours ago, charlie2dogs said:

if and when you ever become self realized, the ones that are will know and you wont need to tell them

Someone who is actually at this level wouldn't feel the need for others to know... because they wouldn't see a separation between "self" and "other" in the first place. 

2 hours ago, charlie2dogs said:

they have been where you are but that wasnt good enough for them, it wasnt liberation

I feel pretty free right now

 

Okay, so that was a glimpse into my mind, most of the major thoughts that popped up in response to your post. I agree with you, I do over rationalize things, but I figured if I were to get any feedback that would be helpful I would have to be completely transparent with what comes up rather than trying to sugarcoat it. And yes, I realize that in asking for guidance I am playing the role of student, but I think in this circumstance it is better for me to do that rather than adamantly believing that I understand what is going on because I quite honestly don't. Thank you for your response.