Minneapolis Will Dismantle Its Police Force

[electroBeam]

Good on 'em. Focusing on prevention through rehab programs, UBI, free mental health, etc is a great direction.

[Forestluv]

@electroBeam Yes. This was a major issue with the city council. Cops are not trained ir qualified for many instances that involve drugs, mental health or domestic violence. Police often escalate or mishandle it because they are not trained for it. Many cases should would be better handled by those trained in social work, addiction, psychology and de-escalation. 

[electroBeam]

4 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@electroBeam Yes. This was a major issue with the city council. Cops are not trained ir qualified for many instances that involve drugs, mental health or domestic violence. Police often escalate or mishandle it because they are not trained for it. Many cases should would be better handled by those trained in social work, addiction, psychology and de-escalation. 

I didn't know that but yes definitely. 

My grandpa told me assault was normalised in the 50s and 60s. Now for the same assault that would have happened on a daily basis back then, gets you a law suit today. Societies' standards are expecting less and less violence, and with that comes increasing importance of the ability to de-escalate. 

This is even happening globally, you can see that Trump's highly violent tactics for trying to give the US global power is backfiring, and China's increase in power is not coming from its military spending, its coming from its ability to draw in allies and provide economic value (and diplomatic restructuring and relations). This is very different to the 1500s or before where power was largely gained through large militaries (like Roman empire). Of course China is still using a large amount of violent tactics, but its increase in power isn't coming from those tactics, if anything that's just hurting China. 

This trend is going to continue, violence is loosing ground as a way to gain power, and police training and practices haven't caught up yet. If countries and governmental bodies want to maintain power, they need to learn de-escalation as an alternative to force. 

[Preety_India]

 

@electroBeam  only the toxic masculine thinks that violence is a way of power. 

 

[electroBeam]

19 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

 

@electroBeam  only the toxic masculine thinks that violence is a way of power. 

 

unless you're a lion

[Preety_India]

@electroBeam  a lion is not toxic masculine. 

Toxic masculine is a lion on shitty steroids and trashy upbringing on beer and bikes. 

 

[Epikur]

5 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Epikur The majority of people are peaceful protestors. You have been linking to right wing FoxNews propaganda that portrays the protestors as violent angry mobs. It is very misleading. 

The below video is from a woman immersed in the protest. She describes three type of people at protests: the protesters, the rioters and the looters. She explains how the game is rigged and how the social contract has been broken. People are fed up and angry for a good reason. 

There is so much focus on the *what* they’re doing. She explains *why* they’re doing it from an inside view, rather than millionaire FoxNews hosts paid off by billionaires. 

Any explanation that does not include wealth inequality in incomplete. And you won’t hear about wealth inequality on FoxNews because they are instrumental in creating, perpetuating and benefitting from that inequality. 

She uses an analogy of the game Monopoly. For those not familiar with the game: players try to accumulate as much wealth as possible during the game.

 

 

I think she partly is right but mainly wrong. Not every community  has a maniac work culture and that is ok. Even in cultures there are different mindsets. For example the orthodox jews in Israel are basically making a lot of kids reciting the tora for hours and get welfare from the state. So there is income inquality there but it's because of different attitudes to work. 

Japanes have a word for death through work it is called karoshi. Most cultures don't want to work that hard and that is ok. I don't want to work at a japanese, or korean level. I understand that it creates friction in society because it is natural that people want to be treated equally but not all communities have the same values so you can not treat people who have different cultures equal. You have to tread them fair and appropriate. That is a tricky thing for multi cultural societies. 

Like I have written couple of times the democrats made with their welfare policies and wrong incentives the situation worse regarding single mothers.

Bottom line the Japanese were far richer then the aborigines. There was income inequality. It was not because anybody oppressed them. Not every inequality is to be blamed on oppression from people. 

On the other thread I gave the example of the island. You can work 10 minutes a day there or 15 hours a day. That would make a huge difference in 400 years. 

The protestors have a responsibility to keep the protest peaceful. Additionally this bullying to  kneel thing is very humiliating. It is not acceptable. 

Here Tucker sees the fault in the cooperations. USA is a big cooperation. Maybe the usa need a new social contract and if people hate each other so much they should divide the country.

 

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Epikur

[Forestluv]

@Epikur You are shifting the topic. I am discussing black-white dynamics in America, not other cultural dynamics. 

Tucker Carlson is an elite millionaire paid by mega-elite billionaires. They are benefitting from participating in a system with structural racism and they have a vested interest in maintaining that system. 

To understand this, one will need to let go of their identity and attachment and see things from a meta view, which includes *getting* the perspective and experience of what one considers “the other side” as well as acknowledging biased structural factors that one benefits from. Tucker Carlson is not at this conscious level. 

In this context, denying structural racism is akin to denying climate change.

Structural racism is very easy for black people to see because they are being negatively impacted by it. It is much harder for white people to see structural racism because they are benefitting from it. Black people have to carry this burden. If I discuss structural racism with black people, they are like “Duh, obviously”. Yet when I discuss structural racism with white people, most are like “Hey wait a minute, what about. . . “. They often try to obscure and deflect. 

For those that would like to learn more about this, I wrote a detailed description in another thread.

The title of the video you linked is “class war”. That is also an issue. Wealth inequality is at extreme levels in the U.S. and this is causing all sorts of problems. Not just for lower class black people - for all lower and middle class people. This is why my higher priority would be to address wealth inequality in the broader sense. Overall, all lower / middle class people will benefit, yet lower class black people will disproportionately benefit, since they are disproportionality impacted negatively. 

For those wanting to learn more about the broader range of wealth inequality, I would recommend Anand Giridharadas. 

[Forestluv]

12 hours ago, electroBeam said:

My grandpa told me assault was normalised in the 50s and 60s. Now for the same assault that would have happened on a daily basis back then, gets you a law suit today. Societies' standards are expecting less and less violence, and with that comes increasing importance of the ability to de-escalate. 

Yes. Another example was that drunk driving was not considered a big deal in the 50s and 60s. My father told me hold police officers would give him a ride home if they pulled him over for drunk driving. They would just say, “don’t do it again”, there were no real consequences. Yet in 1980, Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD) was founded. This brought attention to the underlying issue and their was massive cultural change. Today, drunk driving has severe consequences and is considered a really bad thing to do by the vast majority of the public. Today, if someone was arrested for drunk driving, they wouldn’t be joking around about the wild party with their buddies the next day. 

12 hours ago, electroBeam said:

This is even happening globally, you can see that Trump's highly violent tactics for trying to give the US global power is backfiring, and China's increase in power is not coming from its military spending, its coming from its ability to draw in allies and provide economic value (and diplomatic restructuring and relations). This is very different to the 1500s or before where power was largely gained through large militaries (like Roman empire). Of course China is still using a large amount of violent tactics, but its increase in power isn't coming from those tactics, if anything that's just hurting China. 

This trend is going to continue, violence is loosing ground as a way to gain power, and police training and practices haven't caught up yet. If countries and governmental bodies want to maintain power, they need to learn de-escalation as an alternative to force. 

I hadn’t thought of it in this context before. . . Yes, suppressing underlying issues with violence takes time and effort. It is not the most efficient way to address underlying issues. An analogy would be a father that tries to suppress underlying family issues through intimidation and violence. That takes a lot of energy. That father would be at a disadvantage in developing himself and advancing his career relative to a father that was open to addressing the underlying issues. For example, he would be open to see his part within the family dynamics. He would be open to changing himself. 

[Epikur]

5 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Epikur You are shifting the topic. I am discussing black-white dynamics in America, not other cultural dynamics. 

Tucker Carlson is an elite millionaire paid by mega-elite billionaires. They are benefitting from participating in a system with structural racism and they have a vested interest in maintaining that system. 

To understand this, one will need to let go of their identity and attachment and see things from a meta view, which includes *getting* the perspective and experience of what one considers “the other side” as well as acknowledging biased structural factors that one benefits from. Tucker Carlson is not at this conscious level. 

In this context, denying structural racism is akin to denying climate change.

Structural racism is very easy for black people to see because they are being negatively impacted by it. It is much harder for white people to see structural racism because they are benefitting from it. Black people have to carry this burden. If I discuss structural racism with black people, they are like “Duh, obviously”. Yet when I discuss structural racism with white people, most are like “Hey wait a minute, what about. . . “. They often try to obscure and deflect. 

For those that would like to learn more about this, I wrote a detailed description in another thread.

The title of the video you linked is “class war”. That is also an issue. Wealth inequality is at extreme levels in the U.S. and this is causing all sorts of problems. Not just for lower class black people - for all lower and middle class people. This is why my higher priority would be to address wealth inequality in the broader sense. Overall, all lower / middle class people will benefit, yet lower class black people will disproportionately benefit, since they are disproportionality impacted negatively. 

For those wanting to learn more about the broader range of wealth inequality, I would recommend Anand Giridharadas. 

What happens in Amerika happens basically in the world on a greater scale. If integrating other cultures would be easy the asian countries would open their doors. Even in the culture there is a lot of friction that is not an easy thing to solve. 

I posted Tucker because you said he didn't mention financial inequality. Well kind of did. I heard him even praising Sanders for being with the working class and critisized cooperate democrats and republicans. Trump got votes because he did talk about the working class who lost their jobs to china.

If people would be like this guy things would work out faster I guess. I give him a 8 from 10.
 

 

[Forestluv]

52 minutes ago, Epikur said:

What happens in Amerika happens basically in the world on a greater scale. If integrating other cultures would be easy the asian countries would open their doors. Even in the culture there is a lot of friction that is not an easy thing to solve. 

I never said it was easy to solve. It is a highly complex issue that involves social structures, economics, history, self identity, survival, education and on and on. 

52 minutes ago, Epikur said:

I posted Tucker because you said he didn't mention financial inequality.

Tucker occasionally strikes a populist tone, however I don’t consider him to be an advocate for economic and social equality. I’m not saying his viewpoint is 100% wrong, 100% of the time. I’m saying it is contracted and he is unable to see other perspectives. In part because he has a vested interest in his identity, his massive wealth he has accumulated, his elite status and he is compromised by the billionaires that pull strings. I’ve made similar comments about hosts on MSNBC.

Please be mindful of the subforum guidelines “Spreading propaganda videos. Sources like Fox News, PragerU, etc. will be considered propaganda. (You can link them if you are debunking them.)”

And. . . 

“This sub-forum is meant to be a nuanced (Spiral Dynamics Tier 2) discussion of politics, not a culture war. Discuss political issues from a systemic level.“

”Be here with an open mind. Be here to learn. If you are just here spreading your pet ideology you will probably end up banned.”

I consider you to be in a grey area of being closed-minded to learning and being here with an intention of spreading your pet ideology. Open your mind, be here to learn and raise your level of discourse. 

 

 

[Nak Khid]

possibly the two most annoying people in America presently 

[Forestluv]

3 minutes ago, Nak Khid said:

possibly the two most annoying people in America presently 

On the other side. . . Yes, I can see how FoxNews and Trump’s spokesperson can be seen as annoying. Yet as I mentioned above, we are striving for a Tier2 level of discussion. Ridicule and implicit ‘demonization’ Is Tier1 and it inflames culture wars, which this subforum is trying to avoid.

In general to everyone: I understand how emotionally charged these times are, yet this subforum needs to step up it’s level of discourse. It has been regressing since the Corona virus outbreak and protests toward conspiracy theories and culturally charged inflammatory rhetoric. 

[Epikur]

@Serotoninluv

You talk about not firing the culture war but legitimize looters and riots and killings like of David Dorn. You are in favor of defunding the police. That sounds for me like firing the culture war but I could be wrong.

Even Leo thinks it's stupid to defund the police. 

In a nondual world that is just a story.
The colors are a made up concept I am color blind.
Plus check your white privilege I am a brown guy.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Epikur

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, Epikur said:

You talk about not firing the culture war but legitimize looters and riots and killings like of David Dorn. You are in favor of defunding the police. That sounds for me like firing the culture war but I could be wrong.

I did not ‘legitimize’ looters, rioters or the killing of anyone. As well, I have never said I was in favor of “defunding the police”. Stop creating these frames of conflict opposition. As I said, you are in a grey area of closed-mindedness and splintering the community. You are being given an opportunity right now to learn and grow. If you are here to argue and spread pre-conceived ideology, you will not last long. 

I have written about how I understand the perspective that would motivate someone to loot. I said I understand the perspective of a city council that has repeated attempted to restructure a malfunctional police department and is fed up. 

What you are doing is creating “either / or” constructs of opposition. You only have two categories “my view” and “not my view”. If you want to continue participating on the forum, you will need to step up and learn about nuances, consider different perspectives and learn. This does not mean you need to reject all your beliefs as being wrong or reject your life experience. It’s not about that. It’s not so much the content of your beliefs, it is the attitude holding those beliefs and how you are interacting with others.  I have had this same conversation with users that were closed-minded and here to spread their scientific and materialistic ideology. There are plenty of other forums for that. 

Evolving can be uncomfortable at times. It’s not always easy work, yet the rewards are worth it. I want you do develop to your highest potential (whatever that is) and I am rooting for you. 

[AtheisticNonduality]

@Epikur

 

[ArchangelG]

A very yellow perspective on defunding policing, sociology professor Alex Vitale.

Clear, concise and practical.

 

[Epikur]

Defunding police was the first step, This is the current one: 

"Seattle protesters take over city blocks to create police-free 'autonomous zone'

For three days, the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone, or Chaz, has offered ‘a snippet of a reality the people can have’  "

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/11/chaz-seattle-autonomous-zone-police-protest

 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Epikur
better source